De-rating 90deg C rated cable

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mull982

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When using 90deg C rated cable for de-rating purposes I understand that you have to correct temperature ampacity for such things as ambient temperature and conduit fill etc.. When looking at only ambient temperature and conduit fill you use these two multipliers to figure out the new reduced ampacity of the 90dec C rated cable. Once this de-rating is done does it need to be compared to the 75deg ampacity of the cable to make sure it is less? Do you copare it to the standard rating of the 75deg cable or a temperature corrected rating of the 75deg rated cable.

In other words I have always understood that you can use the 90deg ampacity for de-rating, but after de-rating the ampacity must be less than the 75 deg rating.
 
mull982 said:
When using 90deg C rated cable for de-rating purposes I understand that you have to correct temperature ampacity for such things as ambient temperature and conduit fill etc.. When looking at only ambient temperature and conduit fill you use these two multipliers to figure out the new reduced ampacity of the 90dec C rated cable. Once this de-rating is done does it need to be compared to the 75deg ampacity of the cable to make sure it is less? Do you copare it to the standard rating of the 75deg cable or a temperature corrected rating of the 75deg rated cable.

In other words I have always understood that you can use the 90deg ampacity for de-rating, but after de-rating the ampacity must be less than the 75 deg rating.
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What Jumper said.


jumper said:
The conductor should be equal to or greater than the 75 degree ampacity after derating or you have to go to a larger wire.
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True, but make sure of the terminal temperature ratings, they could be only 60 deg. Or could be SE cable (depending on code cycle) and that would be 60 deg. Both of which would have to be equal to or greater than the ampacity of the 60 deg. column after derating.
 
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jumper said:
The conductor should be equal to or greater than the 75 degree ampacity after derating or you have to go to a larger wire.
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I always thought the de-rated value had to be less than the 75deg C rating?

Do you compare the de-rated 90deg rating to the standard 75deg rating or the de-rated 75 degree rating if there is a temperature correctin factor needed for the 75deg C
 
Let me try it this way. Let's presume we are dealing with wire that has a 90C rating, such as THHN, and with terminations that have a 75C rating. You start with the ampacity listed in the 90C column, and apply the correction and adjustment factors related to ambient temperature and the number of current-carrying conductors. That gives you a new "calculated ampacity" value.
  • If the value you calculated is equal to, or lower than, the value in the 75C column, then you use the calculated value.
  • If the value you calculated is higher than the value in the 75C column, then you use the value in the 75C column.
Does that clarify things for you?
 
Long before Section 110.14(C), the basic content below, extracted from the UL White Book, was around and enforceable through NEC Section 110.3(B) and its predecessors. Section 110.14(C) was originally introduced to “summarize” the termination temperature limitation requirements. A special rule for motors had to be added because 1) NEMA motors aren’t generally listed and 2) NEMA motors have 75?C rated terminations.

UL Category Code AALZ generally applies to all UL listed product categories or products listed or labeled by other NRTLs to UL standards. Virtually all other UL Category Codes ultimately reference back to AALZ.

I don’t know if this actually clarifies anything immediately, but it should be read and understood.

From the latest (2011) UL White Book:



ELECTRICAL EQUIPMENT FOR USE IN ORDINARY LOCATIONS (AALZ):


…
​

Appliance and Utilization Equipment Terminations​





​
Except as noted in the general Guide Information for some product categories, most terminals, unless marked otherwise, are for use only with copper wire. If aluminum or copper-clad aluminum wire can be used, marking to indicate this fact is provided. Such marking is required to be independent of any marking on terminal connectors, such as on a wiring diagram or other visible location. The marking may be in an abbreviated form, such as ‘‘AL-CU.’’

Except as noted in the general Guide Information for some product categories, the termination provisions are based on the use of 60?C insulated conductors in circuits rated 100 A or less, and the use of 75?C insulated conductors in higher rated circuits as specified in Table 310.16 of the NEC. If the termination provisions on equipment are based on the use of other conductors, the equipment is either marked with both the size and temperature rating of the conductors to be used or with only the temperature rating of the conductors to be used. If the equipment is only marked for use with conductors having a higher (75 or 90?C) temperature rating (wire size not specified), the 60?C ampacities (for circuits rated 100 A or less) and 75?C ampacities (for circuits rated over 100 A) should be used to determine wire size. Conductors having a temperature rating higher than specified may be used, though not required, if the size of the conductors is determined on the basis of the 60?C ampacity (circuits rated 100 A or less) or 75?C ampacity (circuits rated over 100 A).
​

Distribution and Control Equipment Terminations​




​
Most terminals are suitable for use only with copper wire. Where aluminum or copper-clad aluminum wire can or shall be used (some crimp terminals may be Listed only for aluminum wire), there is marking to indicate this. Such marking is required to be independent of any marking on terminal connectors, such as on a wiring diagram or other visible location.The marking may be in an abbreviated form, such as ‘‘AL-CU.’’

Except as noted in the following paragraphs or in the general Guide Information for some product categories, the termination provisions are based on the use of 60?C ampacities for wire size Nos. 14-1 AWG, and 75?C ampacities for wire size Nos. 1/0 AWG and larger, as specified in Table 310.16 of the NEC.

Some distribution and control equipment is marked to indicate the required temperature rating of each field-installed conductor. If the equipment, normally intended for connection by wire sizes within the range 14-1 AWG, is marked ‘‘75C’’ or ‘‘60/75C,’’ it is intended that 75?C insulated wire may be used at full 75?C ampacity. Where the connection is made to a circuit breaker or switch within the equipment, such a circuit breaker or switch must also be marked for the temperature rating of the conductor.

A 75?C conductor temperature marking on a circuit breaker or switch normally intended for wire sizes 14-1 AWG does not in itself indicate that 75?C insulated wire can be used unless 1) the circuit breaker or switch is used by itself, such as in a separate enclosure, or 2) the equipment in which the circuit breaker or switch is installed is also so marked.

A 75 or 90?C temperature marking on a terminal (e.g., AL7, CU7AL, AL7CU or AL9, CU9AL, AL9CU) does not in itself indicate that 75 or 90?C insulated wire can be used unless the equipment in which the terminals are installed is marked for 75 or 90?C.​
 
Let's try some actual numbers. Let's say you have a 50A circuit and you plan on running #8 Thhn dual rated wire. The wire will be run through 110 deg F ambient temperature in a raceway, there will be (4) CC conductors in the raceway. First you would derate for the ambient temp. which would be a 0.87 correction factor. Under the 90 deg. column the #8 is rated at 55A. So 55A x 0.87=47.85A. The #8 is already lower than the 75 deg. rating of 50A. However, now you must derate for the (4) CCC in the raceway. The previous derated value of 47.85 is now multiplied by .80 for 4-6 conductors. 47.85 x .80=38.28. Now your #8 is rated less than the needed 50A. This would be the case in either the 60 or 75 deg. column. You now would have to go to the next size wire of #6. Which would give you a rating of 52.20A after doing the derating. #6 @ 90deg. is 75, 75 x0.87=65.25, 65.25 x .80=52.20A.
Hope this helps and didn't "muddy the waters!":)
 
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Here is a thought about 90 C wire ratings that I haven't applied, yet. If a run of wire is landed in or on a 90 C rated item: split bolt, compression coupling, terminal block, lug, etc. and spliced or extended to a larger piece of wire that would meet load ampacity requirement rating at 75 c rating, then one might be able to use that 90 c chart for the main wire run. One might land the larger wire on a 75 c breaker, provided the loadcenter/panelboard is also rated for that temp.

There are other considerations such as voltage drop and heat transfer beyond the splice point. Labor verses material (cu is up there) verses NEC.
 
thunder15j said:
Here is a thought about 90 C wire ratings that I haven't applied, yet. If a run of wire is landed in or on a 90 C rated item: split bolt, compression coupling, terminal block, lug, etc. and spliced or extended to a larger piece of wire that would meet load ampacity requirement rating at 75 c rating, then one might be able to use that 90 c chart for the main wire run. One might land the larger wire on a 75 c breaker, provided the loadcenter/panelboard is also rated for that temp.

There are other considerations such as voltage drop and heat transfer beyond the splice point. Labor verses material (cu is up there) verses NEC.
Click to expand...

Are you talking about this?

09e_PauleyFIG9.jpg
 
charlie b said:
Let me try it this way. Let's presume we are dealing with wire that has a 90C rating, such as THHN, and with terminations that have a 75C rating. You start with the ampacity listed in the 90C column, and apply the correction and adjustment factors related to ambient temperature and the number of current-carrying conductors. That gives you a new "calculated ampacity" value.
  • If the value you calculated is equal to, or lower than, the value in the 75C column, then you use the calculated value.
  • If the value you calculated is higher than the value in the 75C column, then you use the value in the 75C column.
Does that clarify things for you?
Click to expand...

When comparing the final 90 deg rated value to the 75 deg rating do you need to compare it to the listed 75 deg rating or the 75 deg rating with any temperature adjustment derating applied if necessary?

Of course also the de-rated wire always needs to be larger than the load current correct?

Are there cases where after de-rating the 90 deg rating that it will still be larger than the 75 deg rating? In such cases then you must use the 75 deg rating?

So if there is no de-rating necessary and you are just comparing the 90deg rating vs the 75 deg rating you must always choose the 75 deg rating if the 90 deg rating is larger?
 
mull982 said:
When comparing the final 90 deg rated value to the 75 deg rating do you need to compare it to the listed 75 deg rating or the 75 deg rating with any temperature adjustment derating applied if necessary?
Click to expand...

You compare the final 90 deg value after any adjustments, to the 75 deg value without any adjustments. See 215.2(A)(1).
 
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