Dead ending 3 way switches

[Gerard94]

Hey I have a question !!! I recently got fired from a small company . I questioned my journeymen/employer ( partial owneship company ) about the legality of using 14/3 to dead end a 3 way switch . This journeymen reassured me that it was " perfectly legal " . The only question i have is .... when is ok to run a lighting load on a white wire ? ( which you have to do in order to dead ending a 3 way switch with 14/3) I was under the impression that the white wire is only to be used as a neutral . If I am wrong please correct me . I just feel that I was wrongfully fired by a journeymen who didn't know what the [redacted] he was talking about .

 

[GoldDigger]

Well Gerard, first the owner of this Forum has very strong opinions on profanity and crude language, even with some letters replaced.
Second, the NEC very specifically recognizes the use of the white wire in a cable as a switched conductor or hot conductor for this type of circuit, but with limitations.
Third, based on your post, I suspect that your problem was not so much your "questioning" 'as your attitude.

 

[infinity]

A white conductor in a cable can be re-identified as an ungrounded conductor.

 

[Fred B]

You are absolutely wrong, and I agree with GoldDigger on all accounts, but fyi the "white" wire can be reallocated as a ungrounded conductor but would need permanent marking to indicate such in accordance with 200.7(C)(1).

 

[romex jockey]

most of the romex world has gone 14-4 , a noodle for every switch, less box fill ~RJ~

 

[jgonzalezusnvet]

Well, as per 2011 NEC, there should be a neutral at a switch box. In a three way situation, in one of the two. The neutral doesn't necessarily have to be used, but must be present. This is if it isn't possible to add a neutral in the future without tearing the walls.

You must check your NEC requirements for your state.

So you may be correct in a sense. But u must understand, a neutral in a lighting circuit, can be reidentified as a hot circuit.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

 

[electrofelon]

Agree with RJ,. 14-3 dead end s3 usually not compliant, but not because of using the white as an ungrounded conductor.

 

[al hildenbrand]

Hey I have a question !!! I recently got fired from a small company . I questioned my journeymen/employer ( partial owneship company ) about the legality of using 14/3 to dead end a 3 way switch . This journeymen reassured me that it was " perfectly legal " . The only question i have is .... when is ok to run a lighting load on a white wire ? ( which you have to do in order to dead ending a 3 way switch with 14/3) I was under the impression that the white wire is only to be used as a neutral . If I am wrong please correct me . I just feel that I was wrongfully fired by a journeymen who didn't know what the [redacted] he was talking about .

Welcome to the Forum. Gerard.

Your understanding of dead ending a three-way is a recurring question. It's time to get your copy of the NEC out. We need to know which edition you are quoting, . . . is it the 2017? ?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

most of the romex world has gone 14-4 , a noodle for every switch, less box fill ~RJ~

I have to special order it so I doubt the nm world is there yet

 

[kwired]

Well, as per 2011 NEC, there should be a neutral at a switch box. In a three way situation, in one of the two. The neutral doesn't necessarily have to be used, but must be present. This is if it isn't possible to add a neutral in the future without tearing the walls.

You must check your NEC requirements for your state.

So you may be correct in a sense. But u must understand, a neutral in a lighting circuit, can be reidentified as a hot circuit.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

When that rule first came out I think it was written in a way that it appeared you must have the neutral in every switch box. It was changed the next cycle I believe and a room with three/four way switches only one switch box in that room needs the neutral. So if you have neutral in first switch you can run just a three wire cable to a "dead end three way" from the first switch.

 

[al hildenbrand]

When that rule first came out I think it was written in a way that it appeared you must have the neutral in every switch box. . .

Yes, I agree with your words, however, the OP is asking about the white wire in a 14/3 cable.

There are TWO rules that need to be considered, and the OP is asking about the other rule.

Again, Gerard, what edition of the NEC are you working from ? ?

 

[Fred B]

most of the romex world has gone 14-4 , a noodle for every switch, less box fill ~RJ~

I'm not familiar with 14/4 in NM romex I've seen that designation in SO and SJ, but not in NM, could you be referring to 14/2/2. 2 hot 2 neutral and a ground in one NM

 

[480sparky]

I'm not familiar with 14/4 in NM romex I've seen that designation in SO and SJ, but not in NM, could you be referring to 14/2/2. 2 hot 2 neutral and a ground in one NM

14/2/2 is black, red and two whites. 14/4 is black, red blue and white.

 

[LarryFine]

14/4 is black, red blue and white.

Think of it as "3-phase" NM cable.

 

[480sparky]

Think of it as "3-phase" NM cable.

Or two travelers/one switch leg/one neutral cable.

 

[al hildenbrand]

.... when is ok to run a lighting load on a white wire ? ( which you have to do in order to dead ending a 3 way switch with 14/3) I was under the impression that the white wire is only to be used as a neutral . If I am wrong please correct me .

Gerard, the important words in the NEC state that the re-identified conductor, in a cable switch loop, shall not be used as the return conductor from the switch to the (lighting) outlet.

Two travelers and a common conductor, when the common conductor is re-identified supplying this dead-end three-way, is a supply conductor for the switch, even if it came from the junction box that the luminaire is mounted to. Perfectly Code compliant. 200.7

 

[infinity]

Gerard, the important words in the NEC state that the re-identified conductor, in a cable switch loop, shall not be used as the return conductor from the switch to the (lighting) outlet.

This is left over from the days when you dropped a two wire cable down to the switch from a ceiling lighting outlet or a switched receptacle, the white was the hot and the black the switch leg. The way I see it since we're now required to re-identify the white that section is moot and should probably be removed from the NEC.

 

[al hildenbrand]

Gerard, the yes / no answer here, while simple, is deceptively so. Reading the Code words and learning how they give that answer will open up some key definitions that, once understood, apply more widely, and help you be a more valuable electrician. Cable, lighting outlet, re-identified conductor, supply conductor, return conductor, and the monster term of all time "outlet".

 

[Electricmo]

This is the way I’ve done my switches. Safest for the next guy.

 

[Fred B]

This is the way I’ve done my switches. Safest for the next guy.

I totally agree, unless there is no other option, this is a preferred way. It makes designing a 4way, 5way or more, totally and easily doable. And less scratching my head to think "what, or how was this done". But that is also why the code makes some allowance and a proper way for dead end for when this preffered method is not practicable.