Dedicated electrical space

don_resqcapt19 said:
If they have breakers they are listed under UL 67
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If that's correct, as UL 67 is "Panelboards," that sounds like a panelboard to me, and the dedicated space requirements of 110.26(E) would apply. Which makes sense to me, because like a normal panelboard, there will be many circuits running out of it.

Cheers, Wayne
 
wwhitney said:
If that's correct, as UL 67 is "Panelboards," that sounds like a panelboard to me, and the dedicated space requirements of 110.26(E) would apply. Which makes sense to me, because like a normal panelboard, there will be many circuits running out of it.

Cheers, Wayne
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Dedicated space is for future installations so a main CB adjacent to a meter would not need dedicated space because there won't be any future installations.
 
infinity said:
Dedicated space is for future installations so a main CB adjacent to a meter would not need dedicated space because there won't be any future installations.
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Woah woah woah woah guys hang on just a minute before we make conclusions... This question that Grouch1980 introduced has plagued me since the beginning of my career designing meter bank distribution for residential buildings...

Let me give you some insight:
I have asked the NYC code interpretation committee back in June if meter banks containing circuit breakers require dedicated space and they have told me meter banks are not panelboards and therefor don't require dedicated space.

I am not sure if they understood or misunderstood what I meant. I have resubmitted my question like a month ago and this time I'm very specific and sent them Siemens meter bank cutsheet. Still waiting for a reply, and I am hoping this will finally solve the mystery.

I have doubts because meter banks can be installed empty without meters and breakers, and therefore can be considered use for future installation. Another reason I have doubts is because the Siemens meter banks are designed per UL 67. Why would dedicated space not apply to meter banks if the Siemens meter banks are designed per UL 67?

I guess I'll just have to wait and see until the code committee replies...
 
Tainted said:
Let me give you some insight:
I have asked the NYC code interpretation committee back in June if meter banks containing circuit breakers require dedicated space and they have told me meter banks are not panelboards and therefor don't require dedicated space.
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So they confirmed that dedicated space is not required then why would you ask them again?
 
infinity said:
So they confirmed that dedicated space is not required then why would you ask them again?
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Because in my first question, I didn't say the meter bank is designed per UL 67 standard. I only said it had breakers. This time I disclosed it and sent them the cutsheet to be more specific. I am paranoid, I need reassurance lol.
 
Grouch1980 said:
I agree.

If I look at the definition of 'panelboard' in Article 100... it mentions towards the end of the definition that a panelboard is 'designed to be placed in a cabinet or cutout box'. A cabinet or cutout box, also in Article 100, is defined as a box with a swinging door.
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I see your point, however I have a feeling I've seen panelboards without swinging doors.. say maybe distribution panels?
 
Tainted said:
I am paranoid, I need reassurance lol.
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I think that the second time they'll reach the same conclusion that the dedicated space is not required. If you're the designer and it makes you feel better just design it with the 6' of dedicated equipment space even if it's not required.
 
infinity said:
I think that the second time they'll reach the same conclusion that the dedicated space is not required. If you're the designer and it makes you feel better just design it with the 6' of dedicated equipment space even if it's not required.
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Easier said than done if it's an existing building. I do a lot of electrical infrastructure upgrades and finding dedicated space is extremely difficult.

For example, if there is a gas pipe, I cannot just relocate it because all hell will break loose. To relocate gas piping, the entire gas system in the building would need to be shut down for months and pressure tested, this opens can of worms that is unimaginable.

relocating steam piping, water pipes, etc. also open can of worms but not as bad as gas.
 
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Actually, as per the link:

(Last Updated: January 17, 2024)​

If you asked your question in June, it won't show up yet. Maybe not until mid next year :)
 
Grouch1980 said:
Actually, as per the link:

(Last Updated: January 17, 2024)​

If you asked your question in June, it won't show up yet. Maybe not until mid next year :)
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They just got back to me and I got bad news...

Here's my first post:

1733362705284.png

In which they replied:

1733362740829.png


My last and second post:

1733362809570.png

I am not sure why they wrote article 760.41(B) above my question I think it was a typo on their part.

However this concludes it. You need dedicated space above the Siemens meter banks.
 
wwhitney said:
Well, in your jurisdiction. But it seems obvious to me that anything listed under UL 67 and being used accordingly would be a panelboard subject to 110.26(E).

Cheers, Wayne
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Agreed. Also my paranoia paid off when asking them twice about this question
 
Thanks everyone again.

I still think the NEC code is not clear on this. That section in 110.26 should be re-worded to include 'meter centers with integral circuit breakers'. And when you go to a manufacturers website to look up information on the product, and all it says is "Certifications: UL Listed"... with zero information on WHICH UL standard it follows (such as UL 67 in this case), that doesn't help either. In other words, this is poorly communicated by the NEC and also manufacturer's websites.
 
Grouch1980 said:
Thanks everyone again.

I still think the NEC code is not clear on this. That section in 110.26 should be re-worded to include 'meter centers with integral circuit breakers'. And when you go to a manufacturers website to look up information on the product, and all it says is "Certifications: UL Listed"... with zero information on WHICH UL standard it follows (such as UL 67 in this case), that doesn't help either. In other words, this is poorly communicated by the NEC and also manufacturer's websites.
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It's weird... like there are even meter banks with fusible pull-out switches above them, there is no documentation saying if that meter bank type has been designed per UL 67
 
Tainted said:
It's weird... like there are even meter banks with fusible pull-out switches above them, there is no documentation saying if that meter bank type has been designed per UL 67
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Section 1.6(b) of UL 414, the product standard for meter sockets prohibits a meter socket from containing an overcurrent protective device.
If the meter center is listed, it will be listed to UL 67.
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
Section 1.6(b) of UL 414, the product standard for meter sockets prohibits a meter socket from containing an overcurrent protective device.
If the meter center is listed, it will be listed to UL 67.
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The meter bank with fusible pull-out switches that I was talking about is this:
1733532378940.png

There's no documentation whether it's listed as UL 67
 
Tainted said:
The meter bank with fusible pull-out switches that I was talking about is this:
View attachment 2574674

There's no documentation whether it's listed as UL 67
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Is there a listing mark?

It is often difficult to determine what standard a product has been listed to, ever where it is listed. If it was listed by UL, there should be an "E" number near the listing mark, and with some deep digging on the UL site you can determine the product standard it was listed too. Not as easy to do with products listed by other listing agencies.
 
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