Defective Receptacle

[goldstar]

What's the same is each has to have conductivity and tensile strength. If their processes could not meet those requirements they would not be doing it.

They look at the probability and cost of failure just like everything else in engineering.
Jet turbines and nuclear processes are some of the highest standards there are because the cost of failure is so high. Making water balloons is probably one of the lower standards.

You place a lot of trust in manufacturers

If that POCO splice fails they burn down the town.

Maybe, but not necessarily

If the EC who found that failed splice in the wall had called the manufacturer they likely would have covered the cost of diagnosis and repair because it's cheaper to do that than to throw out, recycle or produce, manage & distribute short rolls every time one conductor in a cable comes to the end of a bobbin.

What if the EC didn't find the splice and it ended up inside a wall and then failed 2 years down the line ?

BTW: Saw a failed POCO crimp on a distribution line downtown earlier this year. It caught a 2 story building on fire in 2 places. POCO did not hesitate to cover the cost. They said just send them the bill.

Again, if the POCO knows it's their problem some may stand up and take the hit. For us, if it ends up inside a wall, then fails and causes a fire our pockets aren't as deep as the POCO's.

 

[mgookin]

You place a lot of trust in manufacturers

Maybe, but not necessarily

What if the EC didn't find the splice and it ended up inside a wall and then failed 2 years down the line ?

Again, if the POCO knows it's their problem some may stand up and take the hit. For us, if it ends up inside a wall, then fails and causes a fire our pockets aren't as deep as the POCO's.

It's not that I put a lot of trust in manufacturers. When you go to engineering school they teach you that stuff. Then when you work in it you practice that stuff.

As to the EC that didn't find the splice and it failed 2 years down the line, EC did his job properly. That's not on him. That's on the factory who made the wire. There is no way for EC to detect that splice or know about it, and even if he did detect it or find out about it, it's not required to be removed. The manufacturer put it there and knew it was there; it's on them. EC should be paid to fix it if it fails. Just like a car dealer is paid to fix defective airbags, etc.

The worst industry that I am aware of is motorhomes. I hear they knowingly put out defective product because it's cheaper to have the dealer fix all the factory errors. Even some of the most expensive brands are made under very poor standards.

I seriously doubt any credible name-brand wire manufacturer would knowingly put bad product on the market.

 

[mopowr steve]

It's not that I put a lot of trust in manufacturers. When you go to engineering school they teach you that stuff. Then when you work in it you practice that stuff.

As to the EC that didn't find the splice and it failed 2 years down the line, EC did his job properly. That's not on him. That's on the factory who made the wire. There is no way for EC to detect that splice or know about it, and even if he did detect it or find out about it, it's not required to be removed. The manufacturer put it there and knew it was there; it's on them. EC should be paid to fix it if it fails. Just like a car dealer is paid to fix defective airbags, etc.



Thanks for the link to how they make wire, interesting. But the cold weld is that the same as a regular insulated crimp on butt splice?

Now the problem I have is if a splice in a nm-b were to cause a fire and resulted in death I have a hard time believing that a fire inspector or attorney in any way would be able to differentiate fault of who made the splice once the insulation is completely burnt off. I guess it would be interesting to see statistics of fires created due to splices like this. I would bet that most would point the finger to the installer rather than the manufacturer. Because most wouldn't think anything like this should be allowed to leave the plant.

This kind of thing shows the intellect between the average skilled installer using common sense and fudge factors versus engineers taught to push things to the limit.

 

[mgookin]

It's not that I put a lot of trust in manufacturers. When you go to engineering school they teach you that stuff. Then when you work in it you practice that stuff.

As to the EC that didn't find the splice and it failed 2 years down the line, EC did his job properly. That's not on him. That's on the factory who made the wire. There is no way for EC to detect that splice or know about it, and even if he did detect it or find out about it, it's not required to be removed. The manufacturer put it there and knew it was there; it's on them. EC should be paid to fix it if it fails. Just like a car dealer is paid to fix defective airbags, etc.



Thanks for the link to how they make wire, interesting. But the cold weld is that the same as a regular insulated crimp on butt splice?

Now the problem I have is if a splice in a nm-b were to cause a fire and resulted in death I have a hard time believing that a fire inspector or attorney in any way would be able to differentiate fault of who made the splice once the insulation is completely burnt off. I guess it would be interesting to see statistics of fires created due to splices like this. I would bet that most would point the finger to the installer rather than the manufacturer. Because most wouldn't think anything like this should be allowed to leave the plant.

This kind of thing shows the intellect between the average skilled installer using common sense and fudge factors versus engineers taught to push things to the limit.

There's a very noticeable difference between a field crimp and a manufacturer's crimp. The manufacturer's crimp is going to maintain the OD of the wire whereas a field crimp is going be deformed. If you were the EC and were shown that crimp I'm sure your first response would be "I've never seen a crimp like that in my life. My crew did not make that crimp." The wiring manufacturer would be brought into it.

 

[hbiss]

There's a very noticeable difference between a field crimp and a manufacturer's crimp. The manufacturer's crimp is going to maintain the OD of the wire whereas a field crimp is going be deformed. If you were the EC and were shown that crimp I'm sure your first response would be "I've never seen a crimp like that in my life. My crew did not make that crimp."

But if all that's left is bare copper and the crimp how does an EC prove that he didn't do it and tape it up and that it came that way from the manufacturer?

I vaguely remember that I had AC cable one time that had a Western Union splice in one of the conductors. Was under the paper wrap so it didn't contact the armor. I just happened to find it when I stripped the armor.

-Hal

 

[mgookin]

But if all that's left is bare copper and the crimp how does an EC prove that he didn't do it and tape it up and that it came that way from the manufacturer?

I vaguely remember that I had AC cable one time that had a Western Union splice in one of the conductors. Was under the paper wrap so it didn't contact the armor. I just happened to find it when I stripped the armor.

-Hal

Because he does not tote around the 3,000 lb hydraulic jig that has the die that made that crimp.

 

[mopowr steve]

In my case it was just a regular yellow insulated sta-con crimp splice found inside. Now I'm not sure what was used to crimp it which may have left a distinct crimp impression, but what's the chances of ever finding the tool or machine that did it. And to whom that tool or machine belonged to.

 

[mgookin]

In my case it was just a regular yellow insulated sta-con crimp splice found inside. Now I'm not sure what was used to crimp it which may have left a distinct crimp impression, but what's the chances of ever finding the tool or machine that did it. And to whom that tool or machine belonged to.

What you're describing in this post sounds like it was done when the cable was being made, not when the wire was being made. That would have been done after the wire was insulated.

FYI: 334.40(B) allows you to make that splice in the wall "for repair wiring in existing buildings where the cable is concealed" as long as you use a listed product and follow the directions.

On the splice you're describing I don't know how you'd defend that if the insulation was burned away (which it's going to to be if there's any significant fire). One valid argument you have though is that there is only one splice which means it most likely came from the factory. Had you spliced a length of cable in there you'd have multiple splices.

 

[jhawkbb]

I see that photo too.

OP: was the screw one used to make the receptacle?

We assume so. The screw looked like the 6-32 screws that come on the device to screw it to the box. It's like it fell in before the front plastic got put on. Funny thing is the receptacle came with both screws attached like normal.

 

[jaylectricity]

If that POCO splice fails they burn down the town.

Not likely. The splice fails, the town loses power more likely.

 

[mgookin]

Not likely. The splice fails, the town loses power more likely.

It starts fires. I've seen it.