Definition of "Kitchen".

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growler

growler

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Atlanta,GA
Article 100. Kitchen: An area with a sink and permanent provisions for food preparation and cooking.

Looked at a job yesterday where the owner thinks he has a wet bar but it does include a sink, dishwasher, trash compactor, built in microwave/oven combination, refrigerator and wine cooler. Got to be 20 feet of counter top area and lots off cabinets .

He thinks that because he doesn't have a range or cook top that it's not a kitchen. To me it sounds like this meets the definition of a kitchen.

Any opinions? For or against. It will make a difference on the number of counter top receptacles needed.

Thanks in advance for your opinions.
 
growler said:
Article 100. Kitchen: An area with a sink and permanent provisions for food preparation and cooking.

Looked at a job yesterday where the owner thinks he has a wet bar but it does include a sink, dishwasher, trash compactor, built in microwave/oven combination, refrigerator and wine cooler. Got to be 20 feet of counter top area and lots off cabinets .

He thinks that because he doesn't have a range or cook top that it's not a kitchen. To me it sounds like this meets the definition of a kitchen.

Any opinions? For or against. It will make a difference on the number of counter top receptacles needed.

Thanks in advance for your opinions.
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Built in microwave/oven tells me it’s a kitchen “PERMANENT provisions”


“ shoot low boys their riding shetland ponies”
 
To him, it’s not a kitchen because of how he intends to use it. That’s fair.

But since it meets the NEC definition of kitchen, it must be wired accordingly.
 
petersonra said:
IMO if the built-in microwave is fastened in place it is a kitchen. If it is just sitting on a shelf made for it, not a kitchen.
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petersonra said:
It seems to me we are talking about at worst a few hundred bucks. Probably less. Why is it even an issue.
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When you deal with a homeowner that's acting as his own general contractor then everything can become an issue. You do have a bit of explaining to do to try and keep them straight on things.

The guy had them put in an electric heat pump with electric back up heat strips when the rest of the house is heated by gas. They probably won't need much heat at all in that basement as it's mostly below grade but the power requirement for the heat strips depend on what the HVAC contractor installed.

All sorts of little things become issues when you are dealing with homeowners.
 
growler said:
I'm not so sure that would work. It's been over 10 years since I did a job in that area but back then the AHJ wasn't all that familiar with electrical codes.
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But the AHJ, even when ignorant of the Codes they're charged with enforcing, is still the 'final word'.
 
480sparky said:
But the AHJ, even when ignorant of the Codes they're charged with enforcing, is still the 'final word'.
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It's my understanding that it's up to the contractor to do a code compliant install and that the authorities assume no liability.

Just another way of looking at things.
 
480sparky said:
But it's the AHJ that has to approve it, whether it's "correct" or not.
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I won't mention any names but I have herd there is an AHJ around this area that will let you use #14 Ga. wire on 20 amp circuits for switch legs (lighting).

It's not code complaint so would you do it? They will approve it ( so I have herd).
 
480sparky said:
But it's the AHJ that has to approve it, whether it's "correct" or not.
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If you ask the AHJ and he says "Do it this way", and you have a strong feeling it's not code compliant, and he fails you at inspection time because he's had time to thing about it, you have no recourse. You are better off installing what you believe is code compliant based on items "X, Y, and Z" and defending it at the time of inspection.
 
All of us, whether we know it or not, speak at least two different languages. One I like to call “conversational English,” and it is what we would use to speak with family and friends. The other is the language of our profession. The same word can appear in both languages, and with vastly different meanings. “Kitchen” is one such word. The homeowner may have something in mind when you use that word. But in the language of the electrical profession, it has a very clear meaning. In that language, the space you described does meet the definition of "kitchen."
 
Thanks Charlie for the great analogy. It's interesting that a customer with such a set-up is concerned about the cost of a few more receptacle outlets.
 
charlie b said:
All of us, whether we know it or not, speak at least two different languages. One I like to call “conversational English,” and it is what we would use to speak with family and friends. The other is the language of our profession. The same word can appear in both languages, and with vastly different meanings. “Kitchen” is one such word. The homeowner may have something in mind when you use that word. But in the language of the electrical profession, it has a very clear meaning. In that language, the space you described does meet the definition of "kitchen."
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It took several Code cycles for the definition of 'kitchen' to be adopted. I recall reading one ROP containing a proposal, and the CMP's response was something like "The term kitchen is so obvious it does not need definition".
 
If the "microwave/oven combination" mentioned in post 1 refers to a "convection microwave," that ain't cheap either. We had one installed during our kitchen remodel last year. The "trim kit" that was required in order to fit it into the cabinet neatly was several hundred dollars just by itself. This is not a low end project.
 
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