Definition of premise and definition of branch circuit feeder

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geoff mickelson

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Mike: I am having an issue with an electrical engineer he is telling me that a main distribution panel and metering device must be phyically mounted on the commercial building (church) or the feeder panels and the feeder panel conductors would be considered service enterance, therefore because there 2 distribution panels in the building he is saying if the MDP and metering is mouted off the building but still on the church premise we would be required to run only 1 conduit into the building feeding 1 400amp panel and subbing to another 200amp. He is saying that if we run run 2- 2inch conduits from the MDP to feed 2- 200amp panels in the building that would constitute 2 services into building, he says that it is a NEC code issue and I do not agree as per NEC. If there is an issue with "those having jurisdiction" then those having jurisdiction should have some type of written amendment to the NEC. Is that correct? I am working in Maui county Hawaii Thank-you Geoff Mickelson Kihei, Hi
 
I don't believe that it is accurate to call them two services, but I do agree with him that if the service is remote from the the building, then running two feeders to the building to feed two panels would be a violation of the NEC, specifically section 225.30
 
Geoff,

The service conductors would end at the first OCPD, in your case the MDP

that is located outside of the building, correct ?

If the above is correct then the MDP can have as many OCPD's as you would

need, and you can have as many ' Feeders ' coming into the building as is

needed.
 
Geoff, How far from the building ( outside ) are you talking about, 2'-3' or

20'-100'.

I'm thinking of a SES with a space for the POCO to land wire and have meter,

with MDP ( 6 or less OCPD's ) in the next section. The ses is not screwed to

the building it is free standing but only 2' from the building. Are you guys

telling me I can't run feeders ( up to 6 in this case ) from this MDP ?
 
Unfortunately, you are in the gray area of code interpretation. I cannot say one way or the other whether you or the AHJ is correct without more concise information...

First, I'll quote the pertinent requirements which the acceptance/rejection fall under:
NEC 2008

II. More Than One Building or Other Structure

225.30 Number of Supplies. Where more than one building or other structure is on the same property and under single management, each additional building or other structure that is served by a branch circuit or feeder on the load side of the service disconnecting means shall be supplied by only one feeder or branch circuit unless permitted in 225.30(A) through (E). For the purpose of this section, a multiwire branch circuit shall be considered a single circuit.
Click to expand...
225.30(A) through (E) omitted for brevity since they provide no exception.

The key word of interpretation here is additional...

Questions regarding this requirement:
  1. Is there more than one building or structure served by the service?
  2. If so, is the church obviously the main building or structure served?
  3. At what distance is the service equipment located from the building(s) or structure(s) being served?

Also, the following requirement applies:
NEC 2008

VI. Service Equipment — Disconnecting Means

230.70 General. Means shall be provided to disconnect all conductors in a building or other structure from the service-entrance conductors.
(A) Location. The service disconnecting means shall be installed in accordance with 230.70(A)(1), (A)(2), and (A)(3).
(1) Readily Accessible Location. The service disconnecting means shall be installed at a readily accessible location either outside of a building or structure or inside nearest the point of entrance of the service conductors.​
Click to expand...
Note this requirement states, quite simply, "installed... outside of a building or structure", rather than explicitly specifying it to be attached or secured to the outside or exterior of the building or structure.
 
benaround said:
The ses is not screwed to

the building it is free standing but only 2' from the building. Are you guys

telling me I can't run feeders ( up to 6 in this case ) from this MDP ?
Click to expand...


I guess if someone wanted to take the hard line, it could be argued that you could only run one feeder. But, where it is only 2' away, I wouldn't push it.
 
benaround said:
Geoff, How far from the building ( outside ) are you talking about, 2'-3' or

20'-100'.

I'm thinking of a SES with a space for the POCO to land wire and have meter,

with MDP ( 6 or less OCPD's ) in the next section. The ses is not screwed to

the building it is free standing but only 2' from the building. Are you guys

telling me I can't run feeders ( up to 6 in this case ) from this MDP ?
Click to expand...
benaround: The MDP is approxiately 25-30 ft. from the building Geoff
 
geoff mickelson said:
benaround: The MDP is approxiately 25-30 ft. from the building Geoff
Click to expand...
That distance most likely hurts your case, but does not make the installation non-compliant solely on that fact. For instance, manufactured housing units are allowed up to 30 ft. for service disconnects, which are not permitted to be attached to the exterior. Sure this is an entirely different code section... but I'm just trying to point out there is no requirement for the service disconnect to be attached to the main unit it serves.

You have yet to answer my questions in full...
 
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