Definition of Subpanel/separating grounds/neutrals

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ichimo23

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I'm looking at a job where there was a 400amp service upgrade installed, and the the existing (original main service)200amp panel is now a 'sub panel'. the subpanel still has the 200amp service disconnect in it. Is this 'old' panel now considered a 'sub'? Do i have to separate/isolate the ground/neutral bars in the 'old' panel now? I've been combing through various articles in the NEC, and can't find specifics on this scenario. Any help/direction to articles would be much appreciated.
 
Yes you need to separate the ground and neutral. It is now a sub panel.:D
 
I agree with acrwc10, you must seperate and isolate the grounded conductors from the equipment grounding conductors in the panel. Take a look at 250.24(A)(5).

Chris
 
ichimo23 said:
I'm looking at a job where there was a 400amp service upgrade installed, and the the existing (original main service)200amp panel is now a 'sub panel'. the subpanel still has the 200amp service disconnect in it. Is this 'old' panel now considered a 'sub'? Do i have to separate/isolate the ground/neutral bars in the 'old' panel now? I've been combing through various articles in the NEC, and can't find specifics on this scenario. Any help/direction to articles would be much appreciated.

Is the existing panel now a sub panel or did you add another 200A MB panel beside the existing one and just change the meterbase and service outside?
 
ichimo23 said:
I'm looking at a job where there was a 400amp service upgrade installed, and the the existing (original main service)200amp panel is now a 'sub panel'. the subpanel still has the 200amp service disconnect in it. Is this 'old' panel now considered a 'sub'? Do i have to separate/isolate the ground/neutral bars in the 'old' panel now? I've been combing through various articles in the NEC, and can't find specifics on this scenario. Any help/direction to articles would be much appreciated.

ichimo23,

are you dong this by yourself?

By the way, CP3O asked an excellent question.
 
no, i'm not doing this job by myself. I'm the apprentice, and The Boss just explained the scenario and told me to research how it should be completed and to site the articles. I need more details from him to accurately answer C3POs inquiry, but it is my understanding that the previous main service is now a sub (no changeout of the 200amp panel). I havent been to the job site yet, but it is my understanding that there was a service upgrade done (by another contractor) to 400amp, and the existing 200amp panel at a different location at the residence is now a sub. I will be doing some work in the subpanel and bonding pool equipment/fence ect for a pool that as added during the remodel
 
Additional information...

Additional information...

The boss just got into the shop, and provided a bit more info. The 'sub' panel is about 50' from the new 400amp service. the 'trick' part of the question concerned the MB for the panel. The is now a 200amp main disconnect in the 400amp panel, and one in the old 200amp panel. So, his question is, ''is the 'old' panel now technically a sub-panel?"
 
The NEC really does not address "sub panels", you have panels and services. So it appears that what you have is a 200 amp lighting and appliance panelboard that is being fed from a 400 amp service that has a 200 amp breaker.

Chris
 
The NEC really does not address "sub panels", you have panels and services. So it appears that what you have is a 200 amp lighting and appliance panelboard that is being fed from a 400 amp service that has a 200 amp breaker.

Chris

YES, this is the situation
 
Ok. Yes in your case the nuetrals must be isolated in the existing panel.

I was not sure of your situation. In some cases it is easier to leave the existing 200A MB panel and mount another 200A MB panel right beside it and just redo the service. Then you have a 400A service with two 200A service disconnects, and you did not have to go through the trouble of redoing the nuetrals/grounds in the existing panel.
 
ichimo23 said:
no, i'm not doing this job by myself. I'm the apprentice, and The Boss just explained the scenario and told me to research how it should be completed and to site the articles. I need more details from him to accurately answer C3POs inquiry, but it is my understanding that the previous main service is now a sub (no changeout of the 200amp panel). I havent been to the job site yet, but it is my understanding that there was a service upgrade done (by another contractor) to 400amp, and the existing 200amp panel at a different location at the residence is now a sub. I will be doing some work in the subpanel and bonding pool equipment/fence ect for a pool that as added during the remodel

Is this apart of your training at the shop? Sounds great--if this is the case! Now you have to find the articles--which "we" shouldn't be giving you!
 
I started this thread a few days ago, and the work is complete, but i'm still not clear why the grounding and grounded conductors had to be separated in this 'sub panel'. To reiterate the scenario:
A residential remodel where a 400amp service upgrade was done previously. The new service is about 50' from the previous 200amp service. The previous service was now being utilized as a 'subpanel' (the meter socket of the panel was covered with a blank cover and tagged out by the utility).
The house is being sold, and the home inspector noted the neutrals and grounds needed to be isolated in the 'sub panel', which i understand. However, It is my understanding (correct me if i'm wrong) that the reason for isolating grounds/neutrals in a subpanel is to prevent the 'grounds' from becomming energized by current in the neutrals (since there is no EGC in subpanels). Since the 'subpanel' in question has an EGC/bonding, why would it be necessary to isolate the grounds/neutrals? I'm confused.
 
Is the new service and old service in separate structures? If so take a look at 250.32(B)(2) under the 2005 NEC.
 
ichimo23 said:
I started this thread a few days ago, and the work is complete, but i'm still not clear why the grounding and grounded conductors had to be separated in this 'sub panel'. I'm confused.

Current is going to flow through the neutral (Grounded) conductor from all the unbalanced and 120volt loads. The Ground conductor is there essentially as a "safety path" for faults, unwanted transient voltage, etc. If you have the two connected after the main panel, you will have "neutral current" on the grounding conductor, this can create a safety hazard and many other issues with equipment.
 
ichimo23 said:
I started this thread a few days ago, and the work is complete, but i'm still not clear why the grounding and grounded conductors had to be separated in this 'sub panel'.

Hear is a quote from our own Charlie B

Charlie B said:
Why grounds and neutrals are tied only at the main service, and not at a subpanel.

Reference: NEC article 250.42.

We need to start by noting two things: (1) Current is always seeking a path back to its source, and (2) Current will take every available path it can find.

The function of the equipment grounding conductors (EGC), that ones that connect to the ground bar in the panel, is to carry fault current. If a fault occurs with a piece of equipment, such that a hot conductor comes into contact with the case or other external metal part, any person who touches that equipment is going to get a shock. The shock can be enough to kill, but the current will not be high enough to cause the breaker to trip.

However, with the EGC creating a path from the case back to the ground bar, then via the ground screw or bonding jumper to the neutral bar, the current in this path will be high enough to trip the breaker. This will terminate the event before the person can receive a fatal shock. That is why the ground and neutral buses are connected at the main service disconnecting means ? to complete the current path from the fault point back to the source. In this context, I am treating the main panel as the "source." Once the current gets to that point, it has nowhere else go.

If you also connect the ground and neutral at a subpanel, then there will be two paths for current to flow back to the source during normal operation. Current will be flowing in the neutral most of the time (unless the loads running at the moment are perfectly balanced among the phases). But with the ground and neutral tied together both at the main panel and at the subpanel, the EGC will be in parallel with the neutral wire. Therefore, the EGC will carry current. This will cause the external metal parts of each and every component that has an EGC its to become energized. You could not safely touch anything in the facility. __________________
Charles E. Beck, P.E., Seattle
 
Thanks Dennis for that post from Charlie. It clearly states exactly what i wanted clarified. After i read the post a couple of times, i drew a diagram of the system we were working on, and traced the path of the current. I then had my 'duh!' moment (or epiphany) :)
 
ichimo23 said:
~~ Do i have to separate/isolate the ground/neutral bars in the 'old' panel now? I've been combing through various articles in the NEC, and can't find specifics on this scenario. Any help/direction to articles would be much appreciated.
You make it sound like you think this will be difficult to do? It may have only meant the removal of a single screw, strap, or conductor..... The main bonding jumper in the original panel... See 250.28 And this single connection on the main side of the feeders and branch circuits of premise wiring brings the potential difference of the grounded neutral, and the grounding conductors as well as the earth around any electrodes closer to zero electrical potential - and the reason laid out in the previous post by Dennis via Charlie are why - if you had that connection elsewhere there would be current due to parralel paths - and due to the parralel paths a higher possiblity that faults will take longer to clear.

Sorry - got pulled away before I could hit the 'submit' button
 
e57 said:
You make it sound like you think this will be difficult to do? It may have only meant the removal of a single screw, strap, or conductor..... The main bonding jumper in the original panel...
It can also be a royal posterior pain. The typical residential panel has the grounded and grounding condcutors sharing one bus. Few people use separate buses when the main is in the same box.

Then there are the major-appliance circuits that were installed when 3-wire feeds were still allowed. We're supposed to completely rewire them with 4-wire cables, cords, and receptacles.

and due to the parralel paths a higher possiblity that faults will take longer to clear.
Actually, genuinely paralleled paths should lower the circuit impedance, and hasten the operation of OCPD's.
 
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