Definitions

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Ed MacLaren

Senior Member
Re: Definitions

What is confusing about that?
Click to expand...
I believe that most of us think we are not confused about the subject of grounding/bonding.

I can remember how long it took for me to come to some degree of understanding of the subject, and realize that I am still learning.
Sometimes, I even think I am not confused. :)

But, can't you see from the number of questions that many of the people in the trade are confused about the subject?

Ed
 
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bennie

Esteemed Member
Re: Definitions

Ed: I can't believe your students are not well versed in the theory and application of ground systems.

You appear to be a very thorough instructor. Maybe develop a different approach with your pictoral illustrations.

I attended Naval Technical Training Schools while in the Marine Corps. The military system of subject presentation is one of the best. The Commanding Officer was a professor from Florida State, in civilian life.
 
don_resqcapt19

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
Re: Definitions

Bennie,
There are far too many in this trade that think that the connection to the earth is the main part of the normal fault clearing process. On of the reasons that they think this is the use of the term "equipment grounding conductor" in the NEC. We see this repeatedly in this forum, most recently here and when I and others teach grounding.
Don
 
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bennie

Esteemed Member
Re: Definitions

Don: I think the issue needs to be addressed with a different approach, during the learning curve.

Education and training is the key. More stress should be put on the ground system for proper routing and purpose of the ground conductors.

To ground indiscriminately can be dangerous. A good example is the topic on the bath sink ground.

Notice I don't use the "ing" and "ed" suffix. This is where the confusion gets confused. :(
 
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Ed MacLaren

Senior Member
Re: Definitions

Notice I don't use the "ing" and "ed" suffix.
Click to expand...
Would you also propose that the word confusing means the same as the word confused?

Perhaps you would recommend using the word confuse in place of both of them? :)

How about exasperate/exasperating/exasperated?

Ed
 
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bennie

Esteemed Member
Re: Definitions

I think the confusion surrounding the subject of "ground", is the fact the ground side of a circuit is not considered as being lethal to the touch.

Students form a mental block, rationalizing that the ground side is not important in design considerations., so why bother to study.

The ground side should be addressed from a proper design viewpoint, not as an irrelevant component of the circuit.
 
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bphgravity

Senior Member
Location
Florida
Re: Definitions

Would it be out of the context of the issue to place in parenthesis next to words in the definitions section and maybe the respective code sections:

Grounded Conductor (normal current return)

Equipment Grounding Conductor (fault current return)
 
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bennie

Esteemed Member
Re: Definitions

Bryan: What's wrong with ground conductor/neutral, ground conductor equipment, ground conductor earth?

Get rid of the Chinese "ing" and "ed". No offense intended Ed :D

[ May 09, 2003, 08:38 PM: Message edited by: bennie ]
 
jxofaltrds

jxofaltrds

Inspector Mike®
Location
Mike P. Columbus Ohio
Occupation
ESI, PI, RBO
Re: Definitions

Yes the English language is hard to learn.

Grounding and bonding when properly taught are not hard to understand.

Should we "dumb" down the NEC?(like hiring fireman who can not carry you down are ladder) Or better yet print it in multiple languages?

How about a blind man doing eye laser surgery?

Life is not fair. It will never be so.

Mike P.
 
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bphgravity

Senior Member
Location
Florida
Re: Definitions

I dont see a problem with that, but appearently there are people who do and almost got the words completely changed.

The problem in my opinion is the lack of reference to what these conductors actually do. This is why I made the comment of adding a additional meaning to the definition. Sort of like they are doing with luminaire (fixture).

I for one do not want to see the code get any easier or more simplified. I like the idea of it not being an instructional manual for untrained persons. Besides, I make a living off teaching the code!

Bottom line is that many to most electricians never get comfortable with the code. Most work becomes redundant and taught from the experience of how and not from why. However, this understanding is a great "bar" of sorts. If brain surgery were made easy, everyone would do it. :eek:
 
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bennie

Esteemed Member
Re: Definitions

Electricity is dumb. It can only do two things, create heat, and magnetic fields.

My old dog can do three things, bark, eat and ____
Therefore my dog is smarter than electricity.

Mastering the science should be easy :D
 
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hurk27

Senior Member
Location
Portage, Indiana NEC: 2008
Re: Definitions

To sumerize on how dangerous the missunderstanding of the grounding system is I once wrote Mike Holt about a problem with a trailer park. The state of Indiana was inforceing that the trailer parks would have to breing there trailer electric hook ups into compliance with the NEC before they could get their license renewed to operate.
This sparked a massive startup of a lot of little contractors that just came out of the wood works, and a few from even other states.
A friend of mine lived in a park just down the road from me she was elderly and had some health problems so I kind of looked out for her.
Her park owners was in the prosses of doing this up grade it was being done by some mom and pop teem from michigan and they some how was able to talk the state HUD inspector into allowing them to remove the existing 4-wire feed to the trailer (because the ground wire was bare) and run just a 3-wire tri-plex to the trailer with just a rod at each location. and they kept the neutral and ground seprate. of course this created a very dangerous condition and as it turned out it was my friend that got the shock. I was called one nite and it was her, she was in the hospital she said that when she came home she went to unlock her door and got a bad shock the nabor found her laying on her stoop. after I went to see her I went to her trailer and started to see where the current was coming from and why it didnt open the OCP. what I found was that the dryer had the element shorted to ground. at the panel there was no MBJ as there shount be but when I followed the EGC it came out from under the trailer to just a ground rod. the samething was done at the service equpment. I called the state hud office and brought this to their attention. the Inspector didn't know that this would happen after giving him an ear full he understood that you can not use the earth as a fault clearing path.
 
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bphgravity

Senior Member
Location
Florida
Re: Definitions

That is a sad and scary story, but the problem isnt misunderstanding. The problem with this story and every other is simply gross negligence. When you become an electrician, you are swearing to an oath of compliance with the practical safeguarding of persons and property from the use of electricity.

If you perform a single job under the assumption or because you didnt know any better, this is not because it was too hard to learn or too confusing to comprehend. It was because you were too lazy to open the book, take some classes, and become knowledgable.

People like this contractor in your story should be made an example of. It reads funny, or the language is weird, or it doesnt make sense, or the other fifty dozen reasons people give to not read the code is just an excuss to be negligent.

One of these days, a senators daughter or big shot lawyer is going get electrocuted, and the hammer is going to fall. :mad:
 
roger

roger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Fl
Occupation
Retired Electrician
Re: Definitions

Wayne, wouldn't you also agree that this

"Indiana Electrical Licensing"
Approved CEU Courses: None
State Board: No State Level Licensing
Licensing Requirements: N/A
Continuing Education Requirements: N/A
Renewal: N/A
Renewal Year: N/A
Other Licenses: N/A
Notes: The 2002 NEC was amended, adopted and became effective Friday, September 13, 2002 statewide. For more information contact the Indiana State Department of Fire & Building Services (317) 232-1407.
Reciprocates: None :mad:

is as sad and as big a problem as the ignorant AHJ?

Roger

[ May 10, 2003, 04:13 PM: Message edited by: roger ]
 
roger

roger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Fl
Occupation
Retired Electrician
Re: Definitions

Wayne, I will read it, and I wish you and other responsible contractors good luck in it's passing.

I've got to get back to the mower now. :(

Roger
 
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