Desks in kitchens

[al hildenbrand]

There is no wall space over or under the "desk" surface.

I understand the Style Manual to call 210.52 the "section" such that 210.52(A)(2) also applies to 210.52(C).

 

[charlie b]

210.52(A)(2) is talking about "wall spaces," and it explains what "wall spaces" means as used in Section 210.52. But 210.52(C) is talking about "counter spaces," and that is not the same thing. Nor is "wall counter spaces" the same thing as "wall spaces."

 

[al hildenbrand]

There is no wall space over or under the "desk" surface. So there is no question of whether a receptacle outlet is needed on that wall, and therefore no question of SA circuits or GFCI protection.

However, if you changed the design such that that window by the desk becomes a floor to ceiling wall, I would treat the desk surface as "kitchen counter space," and not as a desk.

So, you are saying that the fixed glass panel is not wall.

And if the glass panel were 4' 1" wide (it's actually 3' 0", but let's pretend it's 4' 1"), no outlets are required at all???

But if the glass panel was a wall, then the desk would be a kitchen counter?

OK.

George, I think we've got the question asked, yet again. :twisted:

I'm just a contractor. I made my statement about this earlier.

 

[fc]

I don't think your photo of a kitchen desk is a desk at all. I would say it is a kitchen counter. Just because you put a chair in front of it does not make it a desk. It's all one counter.
I agree with charlie b

 

[al hildenbrand]

fc,

So you agree with Charlie that no outlets are required at all at the "desk" in my photo?

 

[charlie b]

Al, I know what you are driving at, and I concede that the words in the code can be interpreted differently. But I think there is nothing in the code that addresses this situation. There is no "wall," so you don't need a "wall receptacle" per 210.52(A)(1). There is no "wall counter space," so you don't need a "countertop receptacle" per 210.52(C)(1). There is a "countertop," but there is no "wall counter space."

On the other hand, if there were a wall, and not a window, behind the "desk" surface, then I would apply 210.52(C)(1).

 

[al hildenbrand]

You have an interesting turn on the language, Charlie.

I look forward to some of the inspectors in the crowd chiming in.

 

[sandsnow]

The picture by Al that is 5 post's up.
It is kitchen counter all the way across.
Doesn't look like a desk, more like a "sit and read the paper with coffee area".
To me, this is because it is all at the same height.

If the window was over 48 inches wide, I would not require anything more of the installation, just get the recep's as close to the window on both sides as possible.

As much as we would like the words in the Code to cover every scenario, it just won't happen. There will always be some weird set up, that just doesn't quite fit.

 

[George Stolz]

If the window was over 48 inches wide, I would not require anything more of the installation, just get the recep's as close to the window on both sides as possible.

As much as we would like the words in the Code to cover every scenario, it just won't happen. There will always be some weird set up, that just doesn't quite fit.

And a chorus cried out from the heavens, in jubilation, singing and banging cymbals with much joy...

Larry, have I mentioned what a beautiful area the front range of Colorado is...? :lol:

 

[sandsnow]

Larry, have I mentioned what a beautiful area the front range of Colorado is...? :lol:

I spent 10 months in Denver. Seems like a lifetime ago. Skiied Silverton (what a joke) and Steamboat (great town and skiing)

Are you near there? It was beautiful, then again so was Denver area

 

[George Stolz]

I'm about an hour's drive due north from Denver on I-25. Been up to Steamboat a time or two, but just passing through. Skiing is outside of my desire for self-preservation. My co-worker called in "sore" today though, went up to Breckinridge yesterday.

 

[George Stolz]

Well, the poll has ended.

Does the "desk" get a GFCI?
GFCI required -- ?41%? [ 19 ]
GFCI not required or recommended -- ?32%? [ 15 ]
GFCI not required, but recommended -- ?23%? [ 11 ]
I'm not sure, or have an opinion not listed -- ?2%? [ 1 ]
Total Votes : 46

My conclusions:

• As the inspector over the house in question predicted, ask six people, you'll get six different responses.
• The majority vote here indicates that his decision has merit, whether I agree with it or not.
• Polling is very difficult. What I can envision clearly in my mind is not so easy to communicate. In this poll, however, I believe all members were able to understand the scenario and answer with an accurate reflection of their individual opinion.

I will continue to keep the desk on my third small appliance branch circuit, supplying the dining room and fridge. I will continue to put both cables on the line side of the GFCI, so that it can be removed without removing GFCI protection to other receptacles that more clearly require it.

Thanks to all who contributed! 8)

 

[George Stolz]

P.S. In Al's picture above, my opinion is that the window is a break in wall counter space, therefore receptacles should be installed within 2' of the jamb on each side of the window. :shock:

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

P.S. In Al's picture above, my opinion is that the window is a break in wall counter space, therefore receptacles should be installed within 2' of the jamb on each side of the window. :shock:

Remove the chair,book and phone and look at it.Nec says broken by things like sinks,range.cooktops,frig.It never said windows.Where would this put a kitchen counter that had windows along entire top with maybe a pillar ever 4 feet that is 6 inches wide ? Sorry but this pic to me says counter top

 

[George Stolz]

Yeah, but it's hard!

Agreed, that's a countertop. The designer needs a poke in the eye with a sharp stick, though. :lol:

 

[al hildenbrand]

That particular kitchen was the result of the collaboration of a custom kitchen designer and the owner, who was an interior decorator. Both are very successful in the high end market.

The dimension and location of the window at that desk ties, visually, across to the other side of the kitchen to a matching door, then across the foyer, past the basement stairs/bed hall, through the music room door (same dimension) and to a matching window on the far side of the music room, 70' away. The string straightness of corners and edges, looking from one window to the other is breath-taking.

There is a grace of "placement" that uncomplicates what one sees, yet, when one "looks", there is great depth and nuance.

I don't like modern design, but this one kitchen is the best "design" I've ever been involved with in my opinion. It was a bear to accomplish, mechanically.

Speaking of wall space, and whether a window is a wall for the purposes of kitchen counter outlets, note the window at the sink. It is a triple pane light, 16 feet long and 18 inches high, un-interrupted glass for the entire 16 feet. This wall also carries the roof load.

Click to enlarge

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

Is fixed glass a wall ? Ithink it is a see thru thin wall but very much a wall.In other locations fixed glass is a wall ,like in sliding glass doors.Untill we can get passed if its a wall or not we can not rule on this picture.

 

[charlie b]

Remove the chair, book and phone and look at it. NEC says broken by things like sinks, range. cooktops, frig. It never said windows.

Quite true. As much as we would like to think otherwise, the code is not going to be able to address every possible situation. For example, I don't think the code's authors would have envisioned a "window" that begins above the countertop and extends to floor level. That is why the AsHJ get all the "big bucks." :wink:

 

[John Deere Man]

Art,210.8(A)(6) - All 125v 15 & 20 amp. receptacles in kitchen over counter tops are required to be GFCI protected. Can an appliance be placed on this "DESK" area? If so then it is a counter top.

 

[charlie b]

Art,210.8(A)(6) - All 125v 15 & 20 amp. receptacles in kitchen over counter tops are required to be GFCI protected.

That's not what it says. The rule speaks of receptacles that serve the countertops. It remains an open question as to whether the "desk" is a "kitchen countertop."