detached garage

[mpd]

iwire

have you ever seen SER AL cable fail when used underground in a conduit?

I have many times, and the problem is always the same, the cable got damaged when getting pulled in conduit and fills up with water, and the bare AL equipment ground in the cable fails, thats not an electrical hazard?

does SE cable violate section 338 when installed underground as a feeder?

 

[jwelectric]

Bob, this is what I see and could care less about how good it is protected underground in a conduit

338.10(B) (4) (b)
Exterior Installations. In addition to the provisions of this article, service-entrance cable used for feeders or branch circuits, where installed as exterior wiring, shall be installed in accordance with Part I of Article 225. The cable shall be supported in accordance with 334.30, unless used as messenger-supported wiring as permitted in Part II of Article 396.

Now these conductors going from the house to the detached garage would be outside whether underground or not.
Nowhere in Part I of 225 can I find the word underground. Part I is where we find the requirements on how to install these conductors on the Exterior of a building why is there not something mentioned about the proper method for an underground installation?
I have read 334.30 and cannot figure out how you are going to support this cable every 4 ? feet on the inside of this conduit nor how you will secure it with-in 12 inches of the enclosure. Could you take a couple of minutes and explain how you intend to comply with 334.30 with this underground installation?
Are you going to use 334.30(B)(1) and say that this cable is ?fished in? a space like the walls of a finished buildings?

Then we have the listing of the cable and we both know that this cannot be ignored.
Type SE ? Indicates cable for aboveground installation.

Now to install SE or SE-R underground in a conduit would be a violation of 110.3(B) and this even you cannot deny.

 

[iwire]

Again Mike we are all entitled to our opinions. 8)

Not everyone agrees with yours and not everyone agrees with mine.

Unless you have an official interpretation from the NFPA (Not your State) you have nothing more than opinion.

 

[iwire]

iwire

have you ever seen SER AL cable fail when used underground in a conduit?

No I have not.

I have seen single conductor XHHW, THWN, RHW fail in underground raceways I guess those are hazardous installations as well.

Mike, MDP we are not going to agree here.

It's not a big deal, if anybody other than us has been following along they can clearly see the points on either side and make their own decisions.

Also as always whatever we say here means little as the local AHJ will be the one that matters.

I certainly could be mistaken......so could you.

 

[iwire]

I have read 334.30 and cannot figure out how you are going to support this cable every 4 ? feet on the inside of this conduit nor how you will secure it with-in 12 inches of the enclosure.

Mike that is a silly argument and lacks common sense. :lol:

Cables are allowed in raceways.

I could not be bothered looking up all the references for that. :roll:

 

[jwelectric]

Bob for what ever reason that you are refusing to accept what is written in the NEC is beyond me. You make the statement that it is my opinion when all I am doing is quoting the words as they are written.

338.10 (B)(4)(b) clearly states ?The cable shall be supported in accordance with 334.30, unless used as messenger-supported wiring as permitted in Part II of Article 396.?

Now if I understand the code correctly that sentence is saying that unless I am installing the SE cable on a messenger wire it MUST be supported as outlined in 334.30.

334.30 Securing and Supporting
Nonmetallic-sheathed cable SHALL BE SUPPORTED AND SECURED by staples, cable ties, straps, hangers, or similar fittings designed and installed so as not to damage the cable, at intervals not exceeding 1.4 m (4 1/ 2 ft) and within 300 mm (12 in.) of every outlet box, junction box, cabinet, or fitting.

I might be wrong here but I do believe that I see the word ?SECURED? in that statement.
How do you recommend that I comply with this requirement when I am pulling this SE-R through a pipe?

Whether you agree or disagree does not change what is written in the code book. The code book clearly states NO YOU CAN?T INSTALL SE-R IN CONDUIT PERIOD. This is just what is being said in 338.10 (B)(4)(b).

 

[busman]

Mike,

Where is your definition of "secured" that is contrary to cable in a conduit being secured? If your interpretation is correct, then NO cables can be placed in conduit, since they all have securing and supporting requirements. The NEC references requirements for cables protected by conduit in multiple places.

Mark

 

[jwelectric]

Mike,

Where is your definition of "secured" that is contrary to cable in a conduit being secured? If your interpretation is correct, then NO cables can be placed in conduit, since they all have securing and supporting requirements. The NEC references requirements for cables protected by conduit in multiple places.

Mark

A quick look at 334.15 and you will see permission to install NM in a raceway.

The problem here is that 338.10(B)(4)(b) is referencing 334.30 and not allowing the cable to be installed in a raceway when installed as feeders or branch circuits.

338.10(B)(4)(b) Exterior Installations. In addition to the provisions of this article, service-entrance cable used for feeders or branch circuits, where installed as exterior wiring, shall be installed in accordance with Part I of Article 225. The cable shall be supported in accordance with 334.30, unless used as messenger-supported wiring as permitted in Part II of Article 396.

This is very clear and concise.

 

[JohnE]

Mike,

Do you feel then, that SE cable could be installed underground in a raceway, if installed as service conductors? 338.10(B)4 is only referencing branch circuits and feeders.

 

[George Stolz]

Mike, you're using inapplicable mandatory language to support your case.

334.15(B) does not say that "cables shall be permitted in raceways." It takes it as a given (since it's not forbidden anywhere else), and moves to the next step: raceways shall be used when protecting NM from physical damage.

Would you say, based on your source for 'permission', that NM is only permitted in raceways when protecting the cable from physical damage? There are other occasions for using a raceway, or a section of raceway.

Trying to use 338.10(B)(4)(b) to prohibit this installation doesn't work. None of the areas that this section sends you to prohibit an underground installation. It applies restrictions for how this cable would be installed in some circumstances. There aren't any restrictions for how we install SE in a raceway.

 

[jwelectric]

Mike,

Do you feel then, that SE cable could be installed underground in a raceway, if installed as service conductors? 338.10(B)4 is only referencing branch circuits and feeders.

No UL does no list SE to be installed underground as I have posted

 

[dlhoule]

Mike,

Do you feel then, that SE cable could be installed underground in a raceway, if installed as service conductors? 338.10(B)4 is only referencing branch circuits and feeders.

No UL does no list SE to be installed underground as I have posted

So you are saying that because SE has a higher temp rating than USE it cannot be installed underground.

They are both approved for wet locations. Conduit underground is a wet location. Higher temp rating but cannot use SE. Seems strange to me.

 

[jwelectric]

Trying to use 338.10(B)(4)(b) to prohibit this installation doesn't work. None of the areas that this section sends you to prohibit an underground installation.

Let?s look at this together and see if you can show me where I am wrong.

338.10(B)(4) (b) Exterior Installations. In addition to the provisions of this article, service-entrance cable used for feeders or branch circuits, where installed as exterior wiring, shall be installed in accordance with Part I of Article 225. The cable shall be supported in accordance with 334.30, unless used as messenger-supported wiring as permitted in Part II of Article 396.

Now what I am reading is that SE cable MUST comply with Part I of 225 and section 334.30 when installed as exterior installations.

225 covers outside feeders and branch circuits and Part I covers the general requirements with nothing covering an underground installation. 225.22 covers raceways but we have to adhere to 334.30 so the raceway is out.

It applies restrictions for how this cable would be installed in some circumstances. There aren't any restrictions for how we install SE in a raceway.

The last sentence concerning SE/SE-R cable found in 338.10(B)(4)(b) states; The cable shall be supported in accordance with 334.30, unless used as messenger-supported wiring as permitted in Part II of Article 396.

334.30 covers Securing and Supporting of NM cable and covers nothing about cable in a raceway.

It is through the reference to 334.30 and the wording in 338.10(B)(4)(b) [shall be supported in accordance with 334.30] that mandates that SE/SE-R cable WILL be secured by staples, cable ties, straps, hangers, or similar fittings designed and installed so as not to damage the cable, at intervals not exceeding 4 1/ 2 ft and within 12 in. of every outlet box, junction box, cabinet, or fitting.
It is through the reference to and the wording found in 334.30 that prohibits the installation of SE cable in a raceway.

338.10(B)(4)(b) refers to 225 Part I and 334.30 so no other part of 225 or 334 would apply.

Now to readdress this

Trying to use 338.10(B)(4)(b) to prohibit this installation doesn't work. None of the areas that this section sends you to prohibit an underground installation.

We still have the UL listing on SE/SE-R that you posted. I do believe that you will find that SE/SE-R is NOT listed for underground installations.


Type SE ? Indicates cable for aboveground installation. Both the individual insulated conductors
and the outer jacket or finish of Type SE are suitable for use where exposed to sun.

Try as hard as you like there is no way that the referenced articles and the UL listing of the cable can be ignored.

The bottom line is we are told by both the NEC and UL that an underground installation is a violation.

Now if I am wrong then use code section and UL listing and show me where I am wrong.

 

[jwelectric]

Mike,

Do you feel then, that SE cable could be installed underground in a raceway, if installed as service conductors? 338.10(B)4 is only referencing branch circuits and feeders.

No UL does no list SE to be installed underground as I have posted

So you are saying that because SE has a higher temp rating than USE it cannot be installed underground.

They are both approved for wet locations. Conduit underground is a wet location. Higher temp rating but cannot use SE. Seems strange to me.

This is something that you will need to take up with the Code Making Panel and UL. I am only quoting what is written.

 

[mpd]

I agree with iwire, this is not going to get settled here, both sides have strong opinions and are not going to change, make your own decision based on the information available, and check with your local AHJ BEFORE you start the the job, and just remember no matter what decision you make you as the contractor are the responsible one.

 

[mpd]

I agree with iwire, this is not going to get settled here, both sides have strong opinions and are not going to change, make your own decision based on the information available, and check with your local AHJ BEFORE you start the the job, and just remember no matter what decision you make you as the contractor are the responsible one.

 

[George Stolz]

The cable shall be supported in accordance with 334.30, unless used as messenger-supported wiring as permitted in Part II of Article 396.

334.30 covers Securing and Supporting of NM cable and covers nothing about cable in a raceway.

Huh? Read the last sentence.

Sections of cable protected from physical damage by raceway shall not be required to be secured within the raceway.

What's the physical damage? Being in direct contact with soil would damage cables, unless they were rated for direct burial. Even direct-burial-rated cables would be subject to damage from backfill if 300.5(F) were not protecting them.

We still have the UL listing on SE/SE-R that you posted. I do believe that you will find that SE/SE-R is NOT listed for underground installations.

As your recent feedback from the UL indicates, the term "underground" refers to the wiring method that is in direct contact with the soil surrounding it.

Consider a Sch 40 PVC is installed in a trench, and backfilled, and THWN conductors are installled inside the conduit. The Sch 40 is installed underground, directly buried. The THWN conductors are not "underground", they are merely in a wet location. The conduit effectively removes them from "underground."

So, now you'd cry foul and say "but if they aren't underground anymore, then they wouldn't have to be wet-rated in accordance with 300.5!" Read it again:

300.5(B) Listing. Cables and insulated conductors installed in enclosures or raceways in underground installations shall be listed for use in wet locations.

Reconstruct this sentence in plainer english:

If you install enclosures or raceways underground, the cables and insulated conductors installed inside the enclosures or raceways shall be listed for use in wet locations.

Try as hard as you like there is no way that the referenced articles and the UL listing of the cable can be ignored.

And bear witness, I have in no way ignored the exact sections you've cited.

Mike, MDP we are not going to agree here.

It's not a big deal, if anybody other than us has been following along they can clearly see the points on either side and make their own decisions.

I agree with iwire, this is not going to get settled here, both sides have strong opinions and are not going to change...

Quitters. :lol:

 

[jwelectric]

George I did read the last sentence and every word in both sectoins.

First 338 states that the cable is required to be supported as outlined in 334.30 which means that the cable is to be supported.

In 334.30 the key word in that last sentence is ?sections? meaning ?parts? of the cable being protected not the entire cable. These sections would be those that pass through masonary walls, floors or sections that are in danger of damage such as subject to traffic. Sections in no way means the entire cable.

Now with all that has been said about the SE cable being underground it is clear that UL does not list the cable for installations underground in direct burial no in a raceway. The listing found in the Wiring Manual that You posted is very clear that SE type cable is for aboveground installations ONLY as I will once again post so all can read.

SERVICE ENTRANCE CABLE (TYLZ)
GENERAL
This category covers service entrance cable designated Type SE and Type USE for use in accordance with Article 338 of ANSI/NFPA 70, ?National Electrical Code? (NEC).
Service entrance cable, rated 600 V, is Listed in sizes 14 AWG and larger for copper, and 12 AWG and larger for aluminum or copper-clad aluminum. Type SE cable contains Type RHW, RHW-2, XHHW, XHHW-2, THWN or THWN-2 conductors. Type USE cable contains conductors with insulation equivalent to RHW or XHHW. Type USE-2 contains insulation equivalent to RHW-2 or XHHW-2 and is rated 90?C wet or dry.
The cable is designated as follows:

Type SE ? Indicates cable for aboveground installation. Both the individual insulated conductors and the outer jacket or finish of Type SE are suitable for use where exposed to sun.

Types USE and USE-2 ? Indicates cable for underground installation including direct burial in the earth. Cable in sizes 4/0 AWG and smaller and having all conductors insulated is suitable for all of the underground uses for which Type UF cable is permitted by the NEC. Types USE and USE-2 are not suitable for use in premises or aboveground except to terminate at the service equipment or metering equipment. Both the insulation and the outer covering, when used, on
single and multiconductor Types USE and USE-2, are suitable for use where exposed to sun.

Submersible Water Pump Cable ? Indicates a multiconductor cable in which 2, 3 or 4 single conductor Type USE or USE-2 cables are provided in a flat or twisted assembly. The cable is Listed in sizes 14 AWG to 4/0 AWG inclusive, copper, and 12 AWG to 4/0 AWG inclusive, aluminum or copper-clad aluminum. The cable is tag marked ?For use within the well casing for wiring deep well water pumps where the cable is not subject to repetitive handling caused by frequent servicing of the pump units.? The insulation may also be surface marked ?Pump Cable.? The cable may be directly buried in the earth in conjunction with this use. For termination information, see Electrical Equipment for Use in Ordinary Locations (AALZ).


As you can see the SE/SE-R types of Service Entrance cables are listed for above ground installations.
USE is listed for both underground and direct burial and if it has the tag or mark it can be used in wells. The Pump Cable can also be a direct burial cable.

The one thing that I am sure of is SE and SE-R is NOT ALLOWED to be installed underground in any fashion.

As your recent feedback from the UL indicates, the term "underground" refers to the wiring method that is in direct contact with the soil surrounding it.

The aboveground listing of SE/SE-R takes all other issues out of play. It does not matter what type of conductor is in the cable when it is listed for aboveground.

Reconstruct this sentence in plainer english:
If you install enclosures or raceways underground, the cables and insulated conductors installed inside the enclosures or raceways shall be listed for use in wet locations.

Can we reconstruct this sentence
Type SE ? Indicates cable for aboveground installation.
to say something like this:
?Keep this cable aboveground at all times?

Mike, MDP we are not going to agree here.
It's not a big deal, if anybody other than us has been following along they can clearly see the points on either side and make their own decisions.

I agree with iwire, this is not going to get settled here, both sides have strong opinions and are not going to change...

Quitters. :lol:

George most of the time when playing poker people will fold when they are not holding a winning hand. We can?t call them ?quitters? just because they are wrong.

Remember there is always you and me and we can take this to the big 1000 all by ourselves as long as we don't get locked out.

 

[iwire]

Mike, MDP we are not going to agree here.
It's not a big deal, if anybody other than us has been following along they can clearly see the points on either side and make their own decisions.

I agree with iwire, this is not going to get settled here, both sides have strong opinions and are not going to change...

Quitters. :lol:

George most of the time when playing poker people will fold when they are not holding a winning hand. We can?t call them ?quitters? just because they are wrong.)

In your opinion :lol:

 

[George Stolz]

In 334.30 the key word in that last sentence is ?sections? meaning ?parts? of the cable being protected not the entire cable. These sections would be those that pass through masonary walls, floors or sections that are in danger of damage such as subject to traffic. Sections in no way means the entire cable.

So you're saying that this section forbids installing a conduit complete between two boxes, and installing NM cable in the pipe? :?

That's a 10-lb weight supported by a hair, IMO.

The one thing that I am sure of is SE and SE-R is NOT ALLOWED to be installed underground in any fashion.

Absolutely correct. But SE-R installed in a raceway that is underground is not underground.

The aboveground listing of SE/SE-R takes all other issues out of play. It does not matter what type of conductor is in the cable when it is listed for aboveground.

What is "aboveground"? IMO, it is a word to denote the opposite of "underground". What is "underground"? In direct contact with earth. So anything that is not in direct contact with the earth is "aboveground." 8)

Remember there is always you and me and we can take this to the big 1000 all by ourselves as long as we don't get locked out.

We gotta remember to change it up a bit, though. If we start sounding like a broken record, then we will lose interest and give up on it.

We've read the entire Guide by now, please don't post the whole section when we argue. Pick a sentence or two that best fits, and expound on that, please. I start to skipping over sections of your post when it gets too long. :wink: