detached garage

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ronbannon

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I am looking for input. I am inspecting a detached garage. 4 conductors 60 amp sub panel in side. I am requiring a ground rod and a disconnecting means at the detached garage.
I am using 225.32 when more than 6 branch circuits are in.
I am using 250.32 for the ground rod.
There was no violation was just trying to get feed back if others are looking at same thing. It was copper in pvc.
Thanks all.
 
Sounds fine, for the reasons that you've mentioned. Welcome to the forum. :)
 
what type of conductors were installed to detached garage, I keep seeing alot contractors pulling SER aluminum underground, and then argue its not underground its in pvc
 
mpd said:
what type of conductors were installed to detached garage, I keep seeing alot contractors pulling SER aluminum underground, and then argue its not underground its in pvc
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That wouldn't fly around here. Are they avoiding THWN because of the cost of copper?

As for the original question, I agree with the others. Is someone challenging you on this point? And I think the reference is 225.33.
 
mpd said:
I keep seeing alot contractors pulling SER aluminum underground, and then argue its not underground its in pvc
Click to expand...

I don't see the violation.

Single conductor THWN is not rated 'underground' but we can install it in a raceway underground.'

Why would things change for SER?

SER, just as THWN is rated 'wet location'.

Now if we are talking direct burial than USE would be required.
 
iwire

what about the bare aluminum ground in that cable? and SE cable is UL listed for aboveground only
 
mpd said:
iwire

what about the bare aluminum ground in that cable?
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Can you help me out here, I don't use much AL so maybe I am missing something.

What section requires an insulated AL EGC when not in direct contact with the earth.

Not being a wise guy, can you point me in the right direction.


SE cable is UL listed for aboveground only
Click to expand...

And THWN is 'listed' for underground?

No, it is listed wet location just as SE is.

The 'underground' listing you want is for direct burial use.

It can not apply to conductors in a raceway or you better start failing THWN in a raceway underground.

Notice 300.5(D)(5) requires cables and conductors installed in raceways under ground need only be listed for wet locations, they are not required (when in a raceway) to be listed for underground use.
 
iwire said:
mpd said:
I keep seeing alot contractors pulling SER aluminum underground, and then argue its not underground its in pvc
Click to expand...

I don't see the violation.

Single conductor THWN is not rated 'underground' but we can install it in a raceway underground.'

Why would things change for SER?

SER, just as THWN is rated 'wet location'.

Now if we are talking direct burial than USE would be required.
Click to expand...

This from UL directory for type se cable category TYLZ:

"Type SE ? Indicates cable for aboveground installation. Both the individual insulated conductors and the outer jacket or finish of Type SE are suitable for use where exposed to sun."

Does not this preclude use of type SE, both style U and R underground in conduit or not or am I missing something?
 
electricman2 said:
Does not this preclude use of type SE, both style U and R underground in conduit or not or am I missing something?
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IMO that has to do with the limitation of SE to be direct buried as USE can be.

If you can point me to some single conductor THWN, XHHW, TW etc that is UL listed for underground it will make it easer for me to understand why SE installed in a raceway can not be run underground.

Not something I have put a lot of thought into I am just trying to apply common sense to the requirement.

I could be wrong.

Bob
 
iwire

could I install a bare aluminum equipment underground in conduit?
Aluminum SER cable has a bare aluminum ground
 
mpd said:
iwire

could I install a bare aluminum equipment underground in conduit?
Aluminum SER cable has a bare aluminum ground
Click to expand...

I am not sure, I asked if you could point me to the NEC section you are concerned with.

Can you lend a hand to someone that works with copper 95% of the time.
 
iwire said:
I could be wrong.

Bob
Click to expand...

You're probably not, but I just have a gut feeling that says its not good. I am not concerned about the insulated conductors so much, but the outer jacket of SE can be pretty easily damaged exposing the uninsulated aluminum to moisture leading to corrosion. Maybe UL has the same doubts.
 
iwire

look at 250.120 (B) 2005, my concern is that SE cable is listed for aboveground only, if that cable fills up with water, I will bet in less than a year, that detached garage has no equipment ground.
 
ive got some stuff i got off a job,
we used it to feed temporary sub panels for construction

it is I THINK XHWN or USE Aluminum 4 wire
it has 2 hots, one 'neutral' with a yellow stripe,
and a ground

it is a cable assembly similar to triplex, with the four conductors loosley wrapped together, but ALL FOUR are insulated
 
This one is real simple for me. If it is specified and the local AHJ approves it, I'll use it. In other cases I'm going with thwn.
I do not see anything to prohibit the use of SE in conduit. It is frequently run through conduit on overhead services, which to the best of my knowledge is a wet location. :?
 
This is a good site to navigate.

Alcan Cable


All examples and spec's for SE are listed or identified for above ground use and I could not find any listing for use in conduit "underground".

Why is that relevant? Note exception [4]. Now I know the OP is
about a detached garage but the SE cable question is driving it for now. Exception [4] cites" identified for underground use in a raceway or for direct burial."

III. Underground Service-Lateral Conductors
230.30 Insulation
Service-lateral conductors shall be insulated for the applied voltage.
Exception: A grounded conductor shall be permitted to be uninsulated as follows:
(1) Bare copper used in a raceway.
(2) Bare copper for direct burial where bare copper is judged to be suitable for the soil conditions.
(3) Bare copper for direct burial without regard to soil conditions where part of a cable assembly identified for underground use.
(4) Aluminum or copper-clad aluminum without individual insulation or covering where part of a cable assembly identified for underground use in a raceway or for direct burial.

Some earlier questioned "aluminum" in raceway corroding.

Maybe dissimilar metals if run in RMC or IMC. Why would we do that with SE anyway?

The more I look at this question, the less sense it makes to me. The advantage of SE cable is lost IMO once you install it in other than "short" sections of raceway or a SELB etc.

Moderators note. I made the link forum friendly.

Bob
 
dlhoule

so in other words, as long as it passes inspection who cares, I got a better one to use if you ever end up in court, I knew it was wrong but I did it anyway and it passed inspection
 
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