Detect The Violations - Electrical Panel

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Cletis said:
Hummm, i always thoughts mains had to be left or up in on position?? I got red tagged on this so "ass" umed


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Up, yes. Left, no.
If the throw of the main in the picture were vertical, it would not be possible to invert the panel.
 
What's coming in at the top center of the panel, conduit or two pieces of NM or SE stuffed
into one clamp? Looking at the two 2 pole breakers on the lower right it looks like one has
two black wires and the other has two white wires, one remarked with red tape. Did they
mix conductors from two circuits or is it just the lighting? If they mixed up circuits I don't
know how that would ever work. If it's conduit did they pull two black wires for one circuit
and two white wires for a second? It looks more like four black wires, two to the top left
two pole breaker and two to the lower right two pole breaker.

As electrofelon noted the green bonding screw is in, so all four of the vertical bus bars
are good for neutral or ground, assuming this is the service. Maybe the HI thought the
left and right sets of bus bars weren't connected. If that was the case he might think the
two white wires from the AFCIs needed to be moved to the right set of bus bars. And the
ground wire on the right set of bus bars moved to the left.

Are the top breakers not Square D brand? Can you put non Square D breakers in a Square D
panel? I've seen GE, ITE and Bryant all mixed up.

There are a couple of ground wires twisted together, was that ever allowed?
 
Most important question in my mind is whether that main breaker is the service disconnecting means or not. If yes, not much wrong, just some minor easy things already mentioned. If no, then neutral and grounds have to be separated. It appears to me they are all connected.
 
robertd said:
Are the top breakers not Square D brand? Can you put non Square D breakers in a Square D
panel? I've seen GE, ITE and Bryant all mixed up.

There are a couple of ground wires twisted together, was that ever allowed?
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That is a QO panel so those are SqD breakers, they may be the non-CTL type which would be an obscure violation and not one I'd expect a home inspector to spot.

Yes you can twist grounds together but normal people don't, Californians do it all the time for some reason.
 
robertd said:
...the other has two white wires, one remarked with red tape.
Click to expand...

They appear to be red and black wires which have white paint on them. Follow them up the gutter on the right hand side and you will see the red conductor. Zoom in on the red to white transition area and you can see additional red 'poking' through the white.
 
GoldDigger said:
Up, yes. Left, no.
If the throw of the main in the picture were vertical, it would not be possible to invert the panel.
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QO three phase main breakers (125-225 amp) operate vertically, but you can invert the main breaker if you want to bottom feed the panel.

If purchasing a NQ panel, you assemble the main as needed for top or bottom feed (125 to 600 amp), or specify top or bottom feed if factory assembled.
 
ActionDave said:
That is a QO panel so those are SqD breakers, they may be the non-CTL type which would be an obscure violation and not one I'd expect a home inspector to spot.

Yes you can twist grounds together but normal people don't, Californians do it all the time for some reason.
Click to expand...

Eaton & Siemens do make a UL classified replacement for QO, they do not have the Visi-Trip® feature of a genuine QO, but IMO, no reason to use a classified breaker unless it is a defunct manufacturer like Challenger, & others. Many years ago if a I-T-E breaker fit, that is what was used, this & other forums led me to decide that was not a great idea/practice.
 
two ideas for the brain trust:

1) the twisted grounds going in to the grounding bar, are they from multiple 15a circuits they look to be 14's not a single 6 or 8gage. (don't they look large, look at one of the enlargement pics)
2) lets assume they are from a feeder, could there be a size limitation on the grounding bus Bar ?

and has someone already mentioned the black wire on the neutral bar ??
PLUS,
NO, I have never seen a pre-drilled hole for the grounding conductor ( I have always clamped it)


just a few ideas..
 
randyo said:
two ideas for the brain trust:

1) the twisted grounds going in to the grounding bar, are they from multiple 15a circuits they look to be 14's not a single 6 or 8gage. (don't they look large, look at one of the enlargement pics)
2) lets assume they are from a feeder, could there be a size limitation on the grounding bus Bar ?

and has someone already mentioned the black wire on the neutral bar ??
PLUS,
NO, I have never seen a pre-drilled hole for the grounding conductor ( I have always clamped it)


just a few ideas..
Click to expand...
You just scared the living crap out of me. Oh my goodness, I almost panicked. I looked at the picture and it looks like a black wire, I started questioning how did that slip by me and I not notice that at all. Whew...

It looks black there, its a ground, the picture makes it look black. Good looking out though.
 
randyo said:
two ideas for the brain trust:

1) the twisted grounds going in to the grounding bar, are they from multiple 15a circuits they look to be 14's not a single 6 or 8gage. (don't they look large, look at one of the enlargement pics)
2) lets assume they are from a feeder, could there be a size limitation on the grounding bus Bar ?

and has someone already mentioned the black wire on the neutral bar ??
PLUS,
NO, I have never seen a pre-drilled hole for the grounding conductor ( I have always clamped it)


just a few ideas..
Click to expand...
Look at what is coming in from the top center KO - looks like two type SE cables, those "twisted grounds" are the concentric bare conductor of the SE cables.

Neutral bus in that panel accepts 14-4 AWG, with three of the positions on the left inner bar that will accept up to 1/0, possibly 2/0, can't recall for certain.
 
Nothing wrong with this install. Only problem is with the HI. I wish they were required to have a Masters License to inspect. I have had many problems with HI's. They stop closings and cost people $$$$ for things they know nothing about.
 
Cavie said:
Nothing wrong with this install. Only problem is with the HI. I wish they were required to have a Masters License to inspect. I have had many problems with HI's. They stop closings and cost people $$$$ for things they know nothing about.
Click to expand...
If you have a master's license and can't keep a job, chances are you don't make that good of an inspector either.

Or maybe you have declining health and are looking for a less physically demanding job, but you are possibly taking a serious reduction in pay if you take a HI job.
 
Cavie said:
Nothing wrong with this install. Only problem is with the HI. I wish they were required to have a Masters License to inspect. I have had many problems with HI's. They stop closings and cost people $$$$ for things they know nothing about.
Click to expand...

The Sate of FL used to have a statute that said "only a State Certified Electrical Licensed Contractor can have an opinion on an electrical system." Today I fixed a panel that somebody fixed the double tapped neutrals on and forgot to tighten the screws on the neutral buss and on some of the breakers. EVEN THOUGH when the panel was installed and approved to have double tapped neutrals, a HI found it lacking. Then somebody "fixed it" with 5 new GFCI's installed by a handyman and moved the neutrals and grounds to little individual spots so a Realtor would be satisfied. THEN they called in somebody that could open the panel cover and remember the phrase righty tighty, lefty loosey and tightened up the loose neutral and breaker screws. This all started by some jackleg HI who, on the buyers behalf, needs to find points to negotiate a lower price on an, inspected and approved by the AHJ, serviceable and workable electrical installation. I have even seen where they recommend only a handyman to fix the problem. I ask since I am moving the neutral do you want AFCI breakers?? They say "oh no it has to be less then $$ and that is not what the HI said has to be done and if you would just fix the opens." Translation we got burned so bad on the HI and handyman con we just want to close this thing out.
Dishonest Realtors are the problem, HI and Handymen are just a parasitic reflection of the industry.
:rant:
 
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