Determining Correct Cable from EVWEST for our Application

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creedxx1

Member
Location
alabama
Good afternoon,

We are trying to determine the correct cable from this catalog here that we will use for our application: http://evwest.com/support/Shielded_Battery-Irradiated_XLE.pdf

We will use a max of 64 kW and 120 V and need 650 amps through the cable. We can get two cables and split the current into 325 amps for each cable if necessary. This cable will go from our accumulator to the motor controller. We were thinking about getting the 2/0 cable mentioned in the catalog, but our team cannot believe the ampacity stated in the catalog. We checked some AWG charts online and saw that for 2/0 cable, it can run about 220 amps continuously, whereas EVWEST is stating that their 2/0 cable can carry 390 continuously.

Is our team missing some fine print in the catalog? Has anyone ever used EVWEST and can confirm that any of these cables can carry that many amps? Thanks!

P.S. I posted this thread once before, but didn't see it pop up anywhere, so I'm posting it again, sorry if it appeared twice in the threads.
 
G

GoldDigger

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Retired PV System Designer
The first post(s) by a new member have to be approved by a Moderator before they show up. That may take awhile, so please be patient.
I have deleted your other post as a duplicate. :)
 
I

Ingenieur

Senior Member
Location
Earth
390 at 150 C
you may not be able to find rated terminations

what voltage? ac or dc? 1 or 3 ph?
why a single cconductor battery type cable?
 
C

creedxx1

Member
Location
alabama
Ingenieur said:
390 at 150 C
you may not be able to find rated terminations

what voltage? ac or dc? 1 or 3 ph?
why a single cconductor battery type cable?
Click to expand...

We plan on using it for both AC and DC. One cable will run 120 Vac (from our motor to motor controller) and another cable will be 120 Vdc (from our motor controller to the accumulator; the accumulator will be used to power the motor controller).

It will be 1 phase. We are using single conductor battery type cable because the ones at EVWEST seem to have the specs we are looking for at the correct price and it has the shielding option for the 2/0 cable that we need. We may just run two cables side by side to act like a double conductor cable so as to split the current cause 650 Amps is a whole lot of current. If we run two cables side by side, we can split the current to 325 Amps per cable. I just wanted to confirm it with other people if they have ever used EVWEST cabling and can confirm that it can handle that much Amps or if anyone knows any formulas we can use to calculate whether or not these cables can work? We will use about 5 feet of cable from the motor controller to the motor and 2 feet of cable from the motor controller to the accumulator.
 
I

Ingenieur

Senior Member
Location
Earth
creedxx1 said:
We plan on using it for both AC and DC. One cable will run 120 Vac (from our motor to motor controller) and another cable will be 120 Vdc (from our motor controller to the accumulator; the accumulator will be used to power the motor controller).

It will be 1 phase. We are using single conductor battery type cable because the ones at EVWEST seem to have the specs we are looking for at the correct price and it has the shielding option for the 2/0 cable that we need. We may just run two cables side by side to act like a double conductor cable so as to split the current cause 650 Amps is a whole lot of current. If we run two cables side by side, we can split the current to 325 Amps per cable. I just wanted to confirm it with other people if they have ever used EVWEST cabling and can confirm that it can handle that much Amps or if anyone knows any formulas we can use to calculate whether or not these cables can work? We will use about 5 feet of cable from the motor controller to the motor and 2 feet of cable from the motor controller to the accumulator.
Click to expand...

Controller to motor to accumulator back to motor?
where does the 120 x 650 va (78 kva) come from?
what is an accumulator?
why do you need shielding?
1000 v cable for 120 v application?

it is rated to carry 390 A in 40 C ambient with the cable temp rising to 150 C
very hot
but it will carry that current
but to find terminations rated 150 C might be difficult and $$$
 
C

creedxx1

Member
Location
alabama
Ingenieur said:
Controller to motor to accumulator back to motor?
where does the 120 x 650 va (78 kva) come from?
what is an accumulator?
why do you need shielding?
1000 v cable for 120 v application?

it is rated to carry 390 A in 40 C ambient with the cable temp rising to 150 C
very hot
but it will carry that current
but to find terminations rated 150 C might be difficult and $$$
Click to expand...

EVWEST sells heavy duty terminal blocks for 3 dollars a piece, so we will only need a few of them. I don't think our cable will rise to 150 C, that would be very hot, but it's good to know that the cable can withstand up to that temperature. Thanks for your input.
 
C

creedxx1

Member
Location
alabama
zbang said:
Is there a particular reason you can't use more conventional wiring methods, such as multiple THHN conductors in (multiple) conduit (and 75 degC terminations)?
Click to expand...

I looked at some cables, but couldn't find any website that sells those cables that meet the 325 Amp specification using 2/0 gage. Most are above 4/0 gage size.
 
I

Ingenieur

Senior Member
Location
Earth
creedxx1 said:
EVWEST sells heavy duty terminal blocks for 3 dollars a piece, so we will only need a few of them. I don't think our cable will rise to 150 C, that would be very hot, but it's good to know that the cable can withstand up to that temperature. Thanks for your input.
Click to expand...

Again
a 120/1 650 A 100 HP motor is not common

you state
One cable will run 120 Vac (from our motor to motor controller) and another cable will be 120 Vdc (from our motor controller to the accumulator; the accumulator will be used to power the motor controller).

this does make sense
what is the power source?
120 vac motor to controller
120 vdc controller to accumulator
accumulator powers the motor

what is this for? Testing? Mfg? Permanent installation?
What does the motor power? Pump? Converor? Etc?
what is an (electrical) accumulator?
why does it have to be 2/0 gauge?
why not 300 volt loco wire?

to be code compliant you need 125% x 650 A
maybe more depending on duty cycle

the cable WILL get close to 300 F if you load it near capacity...no ifs, ands or buts

No offense but I strongly suggest you get an EE to look at this since you are stuggling with something as simple as cable ampacity

you are dealing with alot of current and there is a potential hazard if you don't know what you are doing


That cable is listed for sae vehicle use only


 
Last edited:
C

creedxx1

Member
Location
alabama
Ingenieur said:


Again
a 120/1 650 A 100 HP motor is not common

you state
One cable will run 120 Vac (from our motor to motor controller) and another cable will be 120 Vdc (from our motor controller to the accumulator; the accumulator will be used to power the motor controller).

this does make sense
what is the power source?
120 vac motor to controller
120 vdc controller to accumulator
accumulator powers the motor

what is this for? Testing? Mfg? Permanent installation?
What does the motor power? Pump? Converor? Etc?
what is an (electrical) accumulator?
why does it have to be 2/0 gauge?
why not 300 volt loco wire?

to be code compliant you need 125% x 650 A
maybe more depending on duty cycle

the cable WILL get close to 300 F if you load it near capacity...no ifs, ands or buts

No offense but I strongly suggest you get an EE to look at this since you are stuggling with something as simple as cable ampacity

you are dealing with alot of current and there is a potential hazard if you don't know what you are doing
Click to expand...

My bad, we are using 120 V - 3phase from motor to motor controller, so we will have 3 cables there. From motor controller to accumulator, we will use 2 cables supplying 120 V dc.

Sorry, I shouldn't have gotten into too much detail about the project, I didn't mean to waste anyone's time on that. I just wanted to know whether the EVWEST cable could carry that current and if anyone has used that cable before. I believe the 650 amps already included the 125%.

I did a quick search on locomotive wires, and found the same results with other companies, the outer diameters are too big and doesn't provide the amount of current we need. EVWEST claims their cables can provide it, but our team wasn't sure about that, so that's why I asked here if anyone had used their cables before. As of now, we will use 1/0 gage from motor to motor controller for the 120 Vac current and 2/0 gage from motor controller to accumulator for 120 vdc. I'm not sure myself what the accumulator is used for, all i know is that we will use to to power the motor controller. The motor is for a formula 1 car. Thanks again for your input, I just wanted to confirm that the cable could actually run 325 amps.

So we will have 2 cables from the accumulator to our motor controller carrying 325 amps, 120 Vdc each (2/0 gage), and then 3 cables from motor to motor controller carrying 325 amps, 120 Vac. So we actually have 2 motors and 2 motor controllers. So the 650 amps going from accumulator to motor controller will be split to 325 amps each so the 1/0 gage can take care of that. Then the inverter on the accumulator will switch it to AC current, and that will go to from motor controller to motor (325 amps each, 1/0 gage). All these cables will have shielding also, so that should help with some safety concerns.
 
Z

zbang

Senior Member
Location
Roughly 5346 miles from Earls Court
creedxx1 said:
Sorry, I shouldn't have gotten into too much detail about the project, I didn't mean to waste anyone's time on that. I just wanted to know whether the EVWEST cable could carry that current and if anyone has used that cable before.
Click to expand...

(I'm sorry if this sounds a bit harsh.)

More detail would have been very useful. For one, that you're not working on an NEC-compliant installation (an electric vehicle?). Also the length of conductors, duty cycle, and whether the conductors are in free air or somehow enclosed all go into the selection.

Of course a 2/0 copper cable will carry 600a, the question is how hot it will get and thus when does the insulation break down or the copper melt. If it only needs to carry the 600a for 10 seconds it might be OK, but probably not if it's a long-term load. And all the heat is lost energy, which might be important. (If my math is right and assuming 2/0 copper is 0.000256 ohm/m, at 600a that's burning 92W/m.)
 
J

JFletcher

Senior Member
Location
Williamsburg, VA
If this is an NEC installation, you cannot use 2/0 to carry 325A. You will not find any equipment with 150*C terminations

If it is not (such as an electric vehicle/F1 car), you can design it how you want to. My 93 C1500 has 2/0 battery cables hooked to a battery than can provide 1000CCA. I'm sure a jammed starter would pull that w/o frying the cables, but only if you ran it for 10-15 seconds.

From that site:

Applications
For use in automotive, electric motor &
generator, grounding, lighting, tool and
appliance applications. Rated for continuous
use from -70°C up to 150°C.

Their 2/0 is rated for 390A continuous, but to my knowledge that cable type is not NEC listed, and if it is it cannot be run above 195A in NEC governed installations even with 90*C terminations:

http://www.cerrowire.com/ampacity-charts

wag, but I'm guessing that an F1 car has such tight design parameters that a larger cable with higher ampacity may not fit the terminations or chassis path, or put too much weight in the wrong places. NEC design is not nearly as cutting edge/tight on tolerances.

You could always buy the cable, and test it off the vehicle at the amperage you desire, at the ambient temperatures expected (which could be quite a bit higher than 40*C in a F1 car's engine bay) and see what kind of results you get. Simple things like airflow at race speed vs idle may very well make the difference between success and a total loss fire from overheated cable.
 
I

Ingenieur

Senior Member
Location
Earth
after fleshing this out it seems this has nothing to do with an NEC covered installation
it appears to be an EV application
If this was known up front a lot of time and effort could have been saved and a better result achieved
asking a specific technical question without context (house, machine, ship, EV, aircraft, etc.) is pointless
secret squirrel lol
if it is confidential NOTHING should be posted, IP's are not invisible


consult an EE familiar with EV design
reference the applicable SAE standards
contact the cable mfg
or the motor/controller/accumulator suppliers

I'm guessing the motor is a motor/gen
and the accumulator is some sort of energy storage device (batteries, flywheel, caps, or some combination)
 
C

creedxx1

Member
Location
alabama
JFletcher said:
If this is an NEC installation, you cannot use 2/0 to carry 325A. You will not find any equipment with 150*C terminations

If it is not (such as an electric vehicle/F1 car), you can design it how you want to. My 93 C1500 has 2/0 battery cables hooked to a battery than can provide 1000CCA. I'm sure a jammed starter would pull that w/o frying the cables, but only if you ran it for 10-15 seconds.

From that site:

Applications
For use in automotive, electric motor &
generator, grounding, lighting, tool and
appliance applications. Rated for continuous
use from -70°C up to 150°C.

Their 2/0 is rated for 390A continuous, but to my knowledge that cable type is not NEC listed, and if it is it cannot be run above 195A in NEC governed installations even with 90*C terminations:

http://www.cerrowire.com/ampacity-charts

wag, but I'm guessing that an F1 car has such tight design parameters that a larger cable with higher ampacity may not fit the terminations or chassis path, or put too much weight in the wrong places. NEC design is not nearly as cutting edge/tight on tolerances.

You could always buy the cable, and test it off the vehicle at the amperage you desire, at the ambient temperatures expected (which could be quite a bit higher than 40*C in a F1 car's engine bay) and see what kind of results you get. Simple things like airflow at race speed vs idle may very well make the difference between success and a total loss fire from overheated cable.
Click to expand...

Cool thanks for the information man, yeah we just need to make sure it can withstand about 650 or 750 amps for about 10 seconds! Unfortunately, our accumulator is using lithium ion batteries, so from what I've heard, we can only run it like that a few times. We are using this motor just to gather some data like acceleration, speed, hp, etc. We will unplug the accumulator and use the motor controller and motor in the formula 1 car and use some other battery source in the race. Glad this cable isn't NEC listed, otherwise.... Anyways thanks for your help, any other info you have would be appreciated.
 
C

creedxx1

Member
Location
alabama
Ingenieur said:
after fleshing this out it seems this has nothing to do with an NEC covered installation
it appears to be an EV application
If this was known up front a lot of time and effort could have been saved and a better result achieved
asking a specific technical question without context (house, machine, ship, EV, aircraft, etc.) is pointless
secret squirrel lol
if it is confidential NOTHING should be posted, IP's are not invisible


consult an EE familiar with EV design
reference the applicable SAE standards
contact the cable mfg
or the motor/controller/accumulator suppliers

I'm guessing the motor is a motor/gen
and the accumulator is some sort of energy storage device (batteries, flywheel, caps, or some combination)
Click to expand...

Yeah, sorry about that; I guess someone has to pry the information out so thanks to you for doing that, otherwise other people couldn't give their own feedback either. So did you just call me a secret squirrel like from the old cartoon? xD

Yeah the accumulator is using hundreds of lithium ion batteries, it will provide 650 amps and that will be split to 325 amps each; so 325 amps going to motor controller 1 and another 325 amps going to motor controller 2.
 
W

winnie

Senior Member
Location
Springfield, MA, USA
Occupation
Electric motor research
The basic thing to understand is that 'ampacity ratings' are based on temperature and heat removal.

When you run current through a wire you generate heat. More current means more heating.

If the wire gets too hot it will fail. If it only gets 'slightly' too hot then it won't fail instantly but will age more rapidly than it is supposed to.

The extremely high ratings of the cable that you are looking at presume good heat dissipation an insulation which tolerates high temperature.

-Jon
 
J

JFletcher

Senior Member
Location
Williamsburg, VA
creedxx1 said:
Cool thanks for the information man, yeah we just need to make sure it can withstand about 650 or 750 amps for about 10 seconds! Unfortunately, our accumulator is using lithium ion batteries, so from what I've heard, we can only run it like that a few times. We are using this motor just to gather some data like acceleration, speed, hp, etc. We will unplug the accumulator and use the motor controller and motor in the formula 1 car and use some other battery source in the race. Glad this cable isn't NEC listed, otherwise.... Anyways thanks for your help, any other info you have would be appreciated.
Click to expand...

You're welcome. A 2/0 150*C conductor should be able to handle 750A for 10 seconds. If the temperature rise at the terminations is too high, you could fabricate something like a copper or aluminum heat sink; that would also allow larger cable if the terminations wont allow for larger than 2/0 cable. Another option is a short piece of 2/0 from the accumulator to a Polaris connector that would allow a much larger wire, like 350MCM:

http://www.graybar.com/store/en/gb/...gkxrOVARj1Ze2OhrjJqdvWf0G07JNgwHA0aAnfV8P8HAQ

Then use another on the other end to transition from 350MCM back down to 2/0.

Also, the shorter the cables, the less resistance they will have. Good luck, perhaps post some pictures/updates in the future of your project!
 
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