Dimmer/Line Voltage Wires

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mstrlucky74

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So I know this has been discussed before in my previous postbut I’m told different. I was told that the 0-10v wire and power wiring can bein the same conduit(talking conduit here) if the insulation on both are 600v. But than others on here said that's not allowed.
 

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Ok so to add to this…..we( me and another guy) are on the samepage that 120v and class 2 0-10v can’t be run in same conduit but he said youjust run 600v #14 wire for your class 2 0-10v dimming and than you can combine0-10v and 120v wire. I heard of the "same insulation" thing but I don't think that applies here.Don’t think it’s that simple.
 
mstrlucky74 said:
Ok so to add to this…..we( me and another guy) are on the samepage that 120v and class 2 0-10v can’t be run in same conduit but he said youjust run 600v #14 wire for your class 2 0-10v dimming and than you can combine0-10v and 120v wire. I heard of the "same insulation" thing but I don't think that applies here.Don’t think it’s that simple.
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If it's truly class 2 then the insulation value does not matter they connect occupy the same raceway. Typically with stuff like Lutron you can reclassify the control as Class 1 and then use a common raceway.
 
infinity said:
If it's truly class 2 then the insulation value does not matter they connect occupy the same raceway. Typically with stuff like Lutron you can reclassify the control as Class 1 and then use a common raceway.
Click to expand...

Can explain a little more why if it's truly class 2 why the insulation doesn't matter?
 
mstrlucky74 said:
Can explain a little more why if it's truly class 2 why the insulation doesn't matter?
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Because the sections on limited power circuits explicitly say that Class 2 cannot run in the same raceway with power wiring. No mention of insulation rating.

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hbiss said:
Because they don't care what the CL2 (or CL3) insulation is. No CL2 or CL3 can be run with line voltage conductors regardless of what the insulation is.

-Hal
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More important, you cannot run a Class 2 circuit with power wiring even if you do not use CL2 or CL3 wire types for the job. Using a Chapter 3 wiring method and then combining is only allowed under limited circumstances, namely "reclassification" of the circuit.
And, depending on the circuit components and their listing, reclassification may not be possible.

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I'm as confused as any one person can be about this stuff and after this thread I am no less confused.

0-10V dimming wires can't be in the same conduit as the power conductors? Why? They end up in the same make up box at the light fixture and in the same jbox at the switch.
 
ActionDave said:
I'm as confused as any one person can be about this stuff and after this thread I am no less confused.

0-10V dimming wires can't be in the same conduit as the power conductors? Why? They end up in the same make up box at the light fixture and in the same jbox at the switch.
Click to expand...

Since they connect to the same equipment inside the fixture they do end up next to each other but they still cannot be inside of the same raceway if they are Class 2. Lutron allows the 0-10 volt conductors to be reclassified as Class 1 and run in the same raceway as the power conductors with the proper insulation.
 
hbiss said:
Actually if you look there is proper separation provided at the devices between the line and the LV connection points.

-Hal
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I don't understand what you mean. There is no separation of the 0-10V and the line voltage other than the insulation on the wires. They are in the same box on the same device with no way to put a barrier between them.
 
infinity said:
Since they connect to the same equipment inside the fixture they do end up next to each other but they still cannot be inside of the same raceway if they are Class 2. Lutron allows the 0-10 volt conductors to be reclassified as Class 1 and run in the same raceway as the power conductors with the proper insulation.
Click to expand...
Ok got it and completely agree. I'm not clear on why one can't[as someone I know says] just run 600v #14 as the 0-10v dimming and since its 600v wire it can now be in the same conduit as the 120v. I don't believe what's he's telling me is true and that simple. Is it because even though yiur running 600v #14 as your 0-10v dimming...it's still considered class 2 and thus can't be combined in same conduit?

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infinity said:
Since they connect to the same equipment inside the fixture they do end up next to each other but they still cannot be inside of the same raceway if they are Class 2.
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Who decided that made any sense? If there is going to be damage to the wires it's gonna be in a switch box where stuff gets yanked, stripped, screwed, nutted, jammed, in and screwed down.
Lutron allows the 0-10 volt conductors to be reclassified as Class 1 and run in the same raceway as the power conductors with the proper insulation.
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Is that unique to one manufacturer?
 
mstrlucky74 said:
Ok got it and completely agree. I'm not clear on why one can't[as someone I know says] just run 600v #14 as the 0-10v dimming and since its 600v wire it can now be in the same conduit as the 120v. I don't believe what's he's telling me is true and that simple. Is it because even though yiur running 600v #14 as your 0-10v dimming...it's still considered class 2 and thus can't be combined in same conduit?
Click to expand...

A Class 2 circuit has different characteristics than power circuits or even Class 1 circuits. For that reason the NEC does not want Class 2 conductors within the same raceway as power conductors regardless of what type of Class 2 conductor insulation that you have. One manufacturer that we frequently use (Lutron) allows you to wire their equipment as Class 1. Class 2 conductors can be openly spliced without a junction box and are used with power limited supplies which makes them inherently safe.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct.../048-162.pdf&usg=AOvVaw3Om8j7cxSjTjwcnjljxWM_

Some info from Lutron:
Class 1 vs. Class 2 Wiring
The issue of Class 1 (line voltage) and Class 2 (low-voltage) wiring has to do with whether or not the low-voltage
0-10 V signal can be run in the same conduit as the line voltage wiring. This is often a question that deals with
local codes and the capabilities of the ballast / driver and control. Local codes that allow Class 2 wiring to be
run as Class 1 will call out requirements for re-classification. These requirements often include adding “Class 1”
labels over the “Class 2” markings on devices, larger wire gauges, and different insulation requirements. Some
jurisdictions do not allow for re-classification.
Running the 0-10 V signal as Class 1 wiring does introduce some other concerns, including noise / interference
caused by coupling between the line voltage and low-voltage wires. This noise / interference can cause a voltage
fluctuation on the 0-10 V wires which can create a difference between the light level requested by the control and
the light level signal being received by the ballast / driver.
When using Lutron EcoSystem devices, the EcoSystem loop is capable of being run as Class 1 or Class 2
wiring (if allowable by local codes) by following the proper re-classification steps. The digital nature of the
communication eliminates the noise / interference concern because the communication does not rely on
measuring small changes in the voltage.
Click to expand...
 
infinity said:
A Class 2 circuit has different characteristics than power circuits or even Class 1 circuits. For that reason the NEC does not want Class 2 conductors within the same raceway as power conductors regardless of what type of Class 2 conductor insulation that you have. One manufacturer that we frequently use (Lutron) allows you to wire their equipment as Class 1. Class 2 conductors can be openly spliced without a junction box and are used with power limited supplies which makes them inherently safe.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct.../048-162.pdf&usg=AOvVaw3Om8j7cxSjTjwcnjljxWM_

Some info from Lutron:
Click to expand...

Ok got it. So what’s this 600v insulation thing? I’ve heard of thisrule before where you can combine 120v cables with low voltage if they have thesame insulation.
 
mstrlucky74 said:
Ok got it. So what’s this 600v insulation thing? I’ve heard of thisrule before where you can combine 120v cables with low voltage if they have thesame insulation.
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The answer there is that you can combine *low voltage* circuits freely as long as they are *power* circuits. If any of the elements of the circuit got their listing on the basis of being connected only to a *limited power* circuit, then you cannot in general combine their wires with power circuits, regardless of the voltage of the power circuit either.

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They do make MC cable or AC cable with the dimming wires included. They can do this not because of the insulation voltage rating, but because there is an additional jacket around the dimming wires.


http://www.southwire.com/ProductCatalog/XTEInterfaceServlet?contentKey=prodcatsheetbcs001

Also, remember that in most places you can run Class 2 conductors free-air. So you probably don't have to provide a second conduit for the dimming wires. Although I guess that running them free air may cause other issues, like supporting and securing of the cables, and entry and exits into the boxes.
 
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