Dining Room Recep's

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Delcobob

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Are the receptacles in a residential dining room required to be on a small appliance branch circuit? I have always been under the impression that they could be, but are not required to be, as per 210.52 (B) (3).
 
They must be on a small appliance circuit. This is not an uncommon over sight. The same applies to the breakfast nook.
 
NEC 210-52(B) (1)small appliance, receptacle outlets served. Dining room outlets are required to be on the small appliance circuit. Either from one of the 2 required circuits or an additional 20 amp small appliance circuit.
 
In 210.52(B)(1), it states, "Receptacle Outlets Served. In the kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwelling unit, the two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits required by 210.11(C)(1) shall serve all wall and floor receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A), all countertop outlets covered by 210.52(C), and receptacle outlets for refrigeration equipment."

I would interpret this to mean that the dining room receptacles are to be on the two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits required by 210.11(C)(1). :smile:
 
They can also be on their own circuit which in turn would be called a small appliance circuit. I prefer to do my installs that way. Separate run to the dining and nook recep. and then the 2 or more circuits to the kitchen counters.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
They can also be on their own circuit which in turn would be called a small appliance circuit. I prefer to do my installs that way. Separate run to the dining and nook recep. and then the 2 or more circuits to the kitchen counters.
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I'm going to suggest this is a waste. Besides myself, I know of no one who utilizes their (formal) dining room receptacles for anything other than the light in a china cabinet...
 
Dennis Alwon said:
They can also be on their own circuit which in turn would be called a small appliance circuit. I prefer to do my installs that way. Separate run to the dining and nook recep. and then the 2 or more circuits to the kitchen counters.
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I normally do this as well.
 
LawnGuyLandSparky said:
I'm going to suggest this is a waste. Besides myself, I know of no one who utilizes their (formal) dining room receptacles for anything other than the light in a china cabinet...
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We do many houses with buffet tables in the dinning area. It is just my way wasteful or not. No one is suggesting you have to do it my way.
 
LawnGuyLandSparky said:
. . . I know of no one who utilizes their (formal) dining room receptacles for anything other than the light in a china cabinet...
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When I did electrical work, I also ran a separate circuit for possible warmers, coffee makers, the light in the china cabinet, etc. It is my understanding that most custom homes will also have a separate circuit for the dining room. :)
 
C3PO said:
I normally do this as well.
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Ill do the same only if its a really big kitchen, like two dishwashers, sub zero's, a kind of kitchen were you know that the people really entertain quite often.
210.52(B) (3) Additional small appliance branch circuits shall be permitted to supply receptacle outlets in the kitchen and other rooms specified in 210.52(b)1 .. shall be permitted is a permissive rule so Dennis is correct.

If you guts think its a waste I think your wrong. All it takes is one coffee maker and you basically used up more than half the circuit ampacity.
 
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tonyou812 said:
Ill do the same only if its a really big kitchen, like two dishwashers, sub zero's, a kind of kitchen were you know that the people really entertain quite often.
210.52(B) (3) Additional small appliance branch circuits shall be permitted to supply receptacle outlets in the kitchen and other rooms specified in 210.52(b)1 .. shall be permitted is a permissive rule so Dennis is correct.

If you guts think its a waste I think your wrong. All it takes is one coffee maker and you basically used up more than half the circuit ampacity.
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My percolator is 1000 watts, for about 5 minutes, then switches to "keep warm." I'm only suggesting it's a waste in many circumstances. Myself, in a non-custom home have 2 20a SABCs in the dining room for "entertaining," because we inherited electric food warmer/platter/servers, and often keep 2 percolators out there as well. This would overload the 2 additional circuits, let alone the one original which was shared with an original kitchen SABC.

But from what I see everyone else uses sterno-flame platters on the buffet...
 
I use to put them on their own circuit . Not any more, the price of material is killing me. Plus you need to utilize all the spaces in the panel.
I do however put them on the line side of the gfci.
 
like I said I only do it for really big custom homes. Ive worked for customers that frequently have caterers at their homes for private parties and such entertaining clients and friends. But for the average joe who rarely cooks at home let alone any lavish entertaining it is a bit overboard. And IMO that is the differance between a contractor that specializes in custom homes and one who just says he does but does the basic set up like everone else.
 
personally, i don't think the dining rm recepts have to be on the small appliance circuits, it has to be an 20A circuit but not on the small appliance ckt. the reason i say this is because i'm doing a 400 apt unit complex and we have the dining rm recepts on with the refrig circuit. the project is 90% done and the inspectors hasn't said nothing about it being a code violation.
 
cloudymacleod said:
personally, i don't think the dining rm recepts have to be on the small appliance circuits, it has to be an 20A circuit but not on the small appliance ckt. the reason i say this is because i'm doing a 400 apt unit complex and we have the dining rm recepts on with the refrig circuit. the project is 90% done and the inspectors hasn't said nothing about it being a code violation.
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What you are doing is permitted. The circuit you are running for the dining rec and refrig would be considered a small appliance ckt. The other two SABC are serving the counters which would be fine.
 
cloudymacleod said:
personally, i don't think the dining rm recepts have to be on the small appliance circuits, it has to be an 20A circuit but not on the small appliance ckt. the reason i say this is because i'm doing a 400 apt unit complex and we have the dining rm recepts on with the refrig circuit. the project is 90% done and the inspectors hasn't said nothing about it being a code violation.
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210.52 (B) Small Appliances.
(1) Receptacle Outlets Served. In the kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwelling unit, the two or more small appliance branch circuits required by 210.11(C)(1) shall serve all receptacle outlets covered by 210.52 (A) and (C) and receptacle outlets for refridgeration equipment.

In other words, the rooms listed above must be on small appliance circuits. A minimum of 2 small appliance branch circuits are required, but feel free to pull as many as you want. :grin:
 
Dennis Alwon said:
We do many houses with buffet tables in the dinning area. It is just my way wasteful or not. No one is suggesting you have to do it my way.
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Town house.....mabey not.

Large custom home.....mabey yes.

I'm sure Dennis is quite capable of determinig when a separate circuit is needed, and when one is not.

Let's all not forget that the NEC is a minumum requirement but may not be sufficient for a given installation.

Have a nice day. :)
 
frizbeedog said:
Let's all not forget that the NEC is a minumum requirement but may not be sufficient for a given installation.

Have a nice day. :)
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Agreed, IMO, thats what separates the men from the boys.... Knowing what is required at the time of rough in.
 
stickboy1375 said:
Agreed, IMO, thats what separates the men from the boys.... Knowing what is required at the time of rough in.
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AMEN I don't care how long you stop to think about it and plan runs and circuits at rough, this is where the work is done and the problems prevented. Good planning is EVERYTHING.
 
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