Dining Room Recep's

[iaov]

They can also be on their own circuit which in turn would be called a small appliance circuit. I prefer to do my installs that way. Separate run to the dining and nook recep. and then the 2 or more circuits to the kitchen counters.

I do the same.

 

[macmikeman]

I found out the hard way a long time ago that trying to quote ECM articles to inspectors did not fly so good. Nor quoting Stallcup, Richter, nor any other of the great authors of electrical books out there. Going with what the code says is the right ticket. 2008 dining rooms have to be ark fault protected if the local jurisdiction has passed the 08 and no ammendments made to the ark requirements.

 

[tonyou812]

Its not often that I get to say this so here goes. Man am I glad "New Jersey" has the common sense to see the short commings of the whole afci fiasco. Its not often that NJ does something right but this IMO is one of them. Plus we are still on 05 and im loving it. MWBC for all my friends......

 

[mike johnson]

Mike, there are no exceptions to 210.12(B) that relieve the requirement for AFCI protection of the Dining room receptacles. GFCI or not.

I didn't say there were exceptions. I said it will pass.

A minimum of two small appliance branch circuits are required for receptacles serving kitchen countertops 210.52(B)(3). Either or both of these sabc may feed other receptacles in the kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, or dinning area. The code will allow to place dinning receps on with the kit according to the 2008 nec. Then it also states afci protection is not required for areas of the kit recepts. The kit recepts are on with the dinning recepts gfci protected allowed by the nec.

Since the dinning recepts are gfci protected from the kit load side it’s on with the kit code reference it will pass.

AHJ

 

[iwire]

I didn't say there were exceptions. I said it will pass.

A minimum of two small appliance branch circuits are required for receptacles serving kitchen countertops 210.52(B)(3). Either or both of these sabc may feed other receptacles in the kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, or dinning area. The code will allow to place dinning receps on with the kit according to the 2008 nec. Then it also states afci protection is not required for areas of the kit recepts. The kit recepts are on with the dinning recepts gfci protected allowed by the nec.

Since the dinning recepts are gfci protected from the kit load side it?s on with the kit code reference it will pass.

AHJ

It might pass if the inspector does not enforce the NEC.

However what you describe is in fact a direct violation of the NEC and you not going to recommend NEC violations here at an NEC forum without getting hammered on it.

 

[M. D.]

I didn't say there were exceptions. I said it will pass....


.......Since the dinning recepts are gfci protected from the kit load side it?s on with the kit code reference it will pass.

AHJ

Not often and not for long....you never know the inspectors where you work may have found us too...

<H1>Code Quiz

Jan 24, 2008 11:34 AM, By Steven Owen

Q. In accordance with the 2008 NEC, excluding exceptions, arc-fault circuit-interrupter protection is required in which of the following dwelling unit locations?

1. 1. All 15- and 20-ampere, 120-volt, single-phase branch circuits in dwelling units
   2. Bedrooms only, omitting the smoke detector branch circuit
   3. Bedrooms only, including the smoke detector branch circuit
   4. Family rooms, dining rooms, living rooms, parlors, libraries, dens, bedrooms, sun rooms, recreation rooms, closets, hallways, or similar rooms or areas

Answer: D

The 2008 NEC added several new locations to the growing list of places where AFCI protection is required. Section 210.12(B) added family rooms, dining rooms, living rooms, parlors, libraries, dens, sun rooms, recreation rooms, closets, hallways, or similar rooms or areas to the existing requirement for bedrooms. Owen is the owner and president of National Code Seminars and the holder of master electrician certifications in 46 states. He can be reached at necexpert@aol.com.

</H1>

 

[M. D.]

Mike,.there is a big difference between " it will pass " and compliance . The 2008 NEC requires AFCI for dining room receptacles whether they are GFCI protected or not . I can not find any credible article that leads me to believe otherwise,.. can you????

This is from http://www.afcisafety.org/codes.html

(B) Dwelling Units. All 120-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere branch circuits supplying outlets installed in dwelling unit family rooms, dining rooms, living rooms, parlors, libraries, dens, bedrooms, sun rooms, recreation rooms, closets, hallways, or similar rooms or areas shall be protected by a listed arc-fault circuit interrupter, combination-type, installed to provide protection of the branch circuit.
Top of page

2008 NEC? AFCI Applications in the Home

 

[iaov]

Its not often that I get to say this so here goes. Man am I glad "New Jersey" has the common sense to see the short commings of the whole afci fiasco. Its not often that NJ does something right but this IMO is one of them. Plus we are still on 05 and im loving it. MWBC for all my friends......

We're still under the 05 book in Wisconsin too plus Wisconsin has had the good sense to not require AFCI's.

 

[mike johnson]

I agree.

I agree.

It might pass if the inspector does not enforce the NEC.

However what you describe is in fact a direct violation of the NEC and you not going to recommend NEC violations here at an NEC forum without getting hammered on it.

The words. (I recommend to you). Coming out of my mouth would be to place the whole dwelling on afci's.

Too many contractors trying to cut cost mainly on safety issues. Just bill the ho if it's that big of a problem to buy additional items and explain to them in detail that the safety of your investment should be worth every dollar.

When a dwelling catches fire 9 out of 10 times when the fire inspectors cannot find a cause they check off (Cause of fire Electrical, Faulty Wiring).

 

[LarryFine]

Q. In accordance with the 2008 NEC, excluding exceptions, arc-fault circuit-interrupter protection is required in which of the following dwelling unit locations?

1. 1. All 15- and 20-ampere, 120-volt, single-phase branch circuits in dwelling units
   2. Bedrooms only, omitting the smoke detector branch circuit
   3. Bedrooms only, including the smoke detector branch circuit
   4. Family rooms, dining rooms, living rooms, parlors, libraries, dens, bedrooms, sun rooms, recreation rooms, closets, hallways, or similar rooms or areas

Answer: D

I'm sorry, but I don't see a choice "D".

 

[LarryFine]

Then it also states afci protection is not required for areas of the kit recepts.

How are the dining-room receptacles in the "areas of the kit recepts"?

 

[LarryFine]

When a dwelling catches fire 9 out of 10 times when the fire inspectors cannot find a cause they check off (Cause of fire Electrical, Faulty Wiring).

Unless they look in the panel and say, "Nope, can't be electrical; they have AFCI's."

 

[George Stolz]

I always ran the dining room receps with the refrigerator, as a third SABC circuit. I don't see that listed as one of your "two options".

I did not make this 1 of my two options because it is not a wise recommendation for anyone to do this.

Reason being:
In any event where someone uses a vacuum, iron, or accessible equipment to plug into the accessible dinning area receptacle, breaker trips that individual goes to sleep or leave for vacation. Oops someone forgot to go all the way to the panel and reset the breaker now all of our food is spoiled.

If a breaker trips while someone is vacuuming, and they calmly unplug the vacuum, put it away and hop on a plane to Hawaii without giving the tripped breaker a second thought, I'm not going to have a surplus of sympathy for the idiot when they return to find their food spoiled.

One other item to note, in the 2008 NEC they have eliminated all exceptions to the requirement to GFCI protect all receptacles in a garage associated with a dwelling unit. This will require you to GFCI protect receptacles (even single receptacles) for freezers and garage door openers wired under the 2008 NEC.

Spoiled food is not an issue the NEC is concerned with, 90.1(A) and (B).

 

[wirebender]

I'm sorry, but I don't see a choice "D".

Ooooooh, wise guy, aaaayyyyyy? nyuck nyuck :grin:

 

[mike johnson]

One other item to note, in the 2008 NEC they have eliminated all exceptions to the requirement to GFCI protect all receptacles in a garage associated with a dwelling unit. This will require you to GFCI protect receptacles (even single receptacles) for freezers and garage door openers wired under the 2008 NEC.

Spoiled food is not an issue the NEC is concerned with, 90.1(A) and (B).

I know one thing that will be an issue to a homeowner is driving their car up to the garage waiting on the door to open only to find out that there garage door opener receptacle had been tripped and needed to be reset in the 10 foot or more garage ceiling.

hmmmmm. I would not recommend putting a gfci receptacle up there in the ceiling to be reset as i know many electricians will.

There are other options.

 

[M. D.]

I would not recommend putting a gfci receptacle up there in the ceiling to be reset as i know many electricians will.

There are other options.

Yeah install a GFCI breaker or feed the opener from a GFCI receptacle mounted down low ,... not too low wouldn't want the H.O. to bend over ,..might bump his head. Point is in 2008 the garage receptacle requires GFCI with or without AFCI and the dining room requires AFCI with or without GFCI.

I'm sorry, but I don't see a choice "D".

I wonder why it pasted like that ?

A=1
B=2
C=3
D=4
:smile:

 

[mike johnson]

Yeah install a GFCI breaker or feed the opener from a GFCI receptacle mounted down low ,... not too low wouldn't want the H.O. to bend over ,..might bump his head. Point is in 2008 the garage receptacle requires GFCI with or without AFCI and the dining room requires AFCI with or without GFCI.

Sounds like good options.

However most contractors run a 14/3 up from a switch placing it on the garage lighting circuit and probably will not come off a receptacle at ground level and change their way.

It's sad to say that you also will have some contractors crying about the cost of the breaker and placing one in the ceiling anyway. This is going to be an issue for a homeowner.

Only thing i see good coming out of this is doubling up on my service calls log.

I've only had one service call to do one so far but not all is wiring homes under the 08 code just yet.

When they do be ready to bring out your 8ft ladder for this service call.

 

[George Stolz]

This is going to be an issue for a homeowner.

Only thing i see good coming out of this is doubling up on my service calls log.

All this outpouring of concern for the homeowner, and you're still going to charge for the service call?

Leave them a long stick.

Seriously, why all this concern for how others may or may not route their circuitry? People make boneheaded decisions every day, as long as I keep mine to a minimum I'm content.

 

[mike johnson]

All this outpouring of concern for the homeowner
Seriously, why all this concern for how others may or may not route their circuitry? People make boneheaded decisions every day, as long as I keep mine to a minimum I'm content.

For the same reason why there is a big difference between someone treating what they do as just a job, and someone treating what they do as a professional career.

 

[George Stolz]

What I am saying is, would you like to see the NEC written with that end in mind? Whose "best practices" should they adhere to?