peter d
Senior Member
- Location
- New England
Re: disconnect between meter can and breaker panel
Thanks for clearing that up Allen. :roll:
Thanks for clearing that up Allen. :roll:
disconnect between meter can and breaker panel
- Thread starter bulldog195169
- Start date
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bulldog195169
Member
Re: disconnect between meter can and breaker panel
thank you all for your responses. i have the answer i was expecting. it was interesting the approaches and comments that were brought forth from the question. it is apparent that common sense is a very important in applying the nec. i find it almost comical that the service entrance cable could wrap around the exterior of a structure and not be of a concern until it actually penetrates into the structure, but once inside everyone seemed to be really concerned same wire. and do i sense a holier than thou attitude from the question "btw what kind of inspector are you" ie which means i will explain. i'm the type of inspector that will ask the stupid question over and over again until im satisfied i have put safety first. my final comment would be to all who post their opinions and answers and questions. keep asking keep reading keep thinking.
thank you all for your responses. i have the answer i was expecting. it was interesting the approaches and comments that were brought forth from the question. it is apparent that common sense is a very important in applying the nec. i find it almost comical that the service entrance cable could wrap around the exterior of a structure and not be of a concern until it actually penetrates into the structure, but once inside everyone seemed to be really concerned same wire. and do i sense a holier than thou attitude from the question "btw what kind of inspector are you" ie which means i will explain. i'm the type of inspector that will ask the stupid question over and over again until im satisfied i have put safety first. my final comment would be to all who post their opinions and answers and questions. keep asking keep reading keep thinking.
Re: disconnect between meter can and breaker panel
Are you an Electrical inspector, a Home inspector, an Insurance investigator, a Bank representative, etc...?
Believe it or not, your question (or the way you asked it)is some what odd for an Electrical inspector to be asking.
Roger
I appreciate the fact that you will ask a question instead of just making up your own rules, but I think you misunderstood my question to you.
Are you an Electrical inspector, a Home inspector, an Insurance investigator, a Bank representative, etc...?
Believe it or not, your question (or the way you asked it)is some what odd for an Electrical inspector to be asking.
Roger
charlie
Senior Member
- Location
- Indianapolis
Re: disconnect between meter can and breaker panel
The type of inspector is as fair as what type of electrician or what type of engineer. Roger doesn't have a holier than thou attitude, it lets us know where you are coming from. Take the same question as to what kind of electrician. There can be an residential, maintenance, commercial, industrial, apprentices or journeyman in each, etc. By knowing that, we will get a feel for what your level of knowledge is and how to answer your questions.
As an example, I do engineering work but I am not an engineer like Charlie Beck. I have extensive knowledge of the NEC and understand a great many of the principals. However, I do not understand completely some of the explanations the Charlie Beck writes.
I don't think I lose any of the respect I have gotten from the guys here just because I am not an engineer. I don't believe you would lose any respect by letting us know what type of inspector you are.
The type of inspector is as fair as what type of electrician or what type of engineer. Roger doesn't have a holier than thou attitude, it lets us know where you are coming from. Take the same question as to what kind of electrician. There can be an residential, maintenance, commercial, industrial, apprentices or journeyman in each, etc. By knowing that, we will get a feel for what your level of knowledge is and how to answer your questions.
As an example, I do engineering work but I am not an engineer like Charlie Beck. I have extensive knowledge of the NEC and understand a great many of the principals. However, I do not understand completely some of the explanations the Charlie Beck writes.
I don't think I lose any of the respect I have gotten from the guys here just because I am not an engineer. I don't believe you would lose any respect by letting us know what type of inspector you are.
hardworkingstiff
Senior Member
- Location
- Wilmington, NC
Re: disconnect between meter can and breaker panel
Good luck bulldog. And BTW, I agree with you that it does not make sense to allow a cable to circle the house without regard to over current protection, but that's the way the code is written. There are a lot of sharp people on this board.
Agreed.
Good luck bulldog. And BTW, I agree with you that it does not make sense to allow a cable to circle the house without regard to over current protection, but that's the way the code is written. There are a lot of sharp people on this board.
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2023
- Occupation
- Hospital Master Electrician
Re: disconnect between meter can and breaker panel
I agree with what Charlie E wrote, and would add that your suspicion is understandable: it looks like that. But try not to confuse "confusion" for "disdain."
Then, welcome to the forum.
bulldog195169
Member
Re: disconnect between meter can and breaker panel
the question was meant to be odd, that is the point i was making. i was looking for the reaction and the solution. the question was presented as part of the test if you will of simple answers to complicated questions. if the nec chooses not to specifically answer the question then can one presume that the significance of the installation is insignificant to everyone except the person with the responsibility of risk. the possibility of the wire/entrance cable running through the attic becoming a problem or being a potential for a problem must be considered slight at least in the thinking of the nec. yes ? no ?
the question was meant to be odd, that is the point i was making. i was looking for the reaction and the solution. the question was presented as part of the test if you will of simple answers to complicated questions. if the nec chooses not to specifically answer the question then can one presume that the significance of the installation is insignificant to everyone except the person with the responsibility of risk. the possibility of the wire/entrance cable running through the attic becoming a problem or being a potential for a problem must be considered slight at least in the thinking of the nec. yes ? no ?
peter d
Senior Member
- Location
- New England
Re: disconnect between meter can and breaker panel
As I said earlier, running unprotected service conductors through an attic is a disaster waiting to happen.
The NEC recognizes this fact quite clearly, which is why the code rule states the service disconnect must be located at the "nearest the point of entrance of the service conductors."
There is not much room here for interpreatation here, other than a little bit of "fudge factor" for the distance involved, in which there aren't very many good reasons to allow a long length. Most AHJs take a strong stance on the issue in my area by allowing no more than 10 feet, frequently much less.
No, I don't think so at all. I'm not sure how you would arrive at that conclusion either, cosidering the discussion that's just taken place.
As I said earlier, running unprotected service conductors through an attic is a disaster waiting to happen. The NEC recognizes this fact quite clearly, which is why the code rule states the service disconnect must be located at the "nearest the point of entrance of the service conductors."
There is not much room here for interpreatation here, other than a little bit of "fudge factor" for the distance involved, in which there aren't very many good reasons to allow a long length. Most AHJs take a strong stance on the issue in my area by allowing no more than 10 feet, frequently much less.
Re: disconnect between meter can and breaker panel
Charlie, Hardworkingstiff, and George, thanks for the support.
Bulldog, why won't you answer the question, what type of inspector are you?
It seems as though you are deliberatly evading and dancing around it.
Now, I'll ask another question, what is the real reason you are asking this?
If you are an Electrical inspector you have certainly had some experience with this part of the NEC before now.
Roger
Charlie, Hardworkingstiff, and George, thanks for the support.
Bulldog, why won't you answer the question, what type of inspector are you?
It seems as though you are deliberatly evading and dancing around it.
Now, I'll ask another question, what is the real reason you are asking this?
If you are an Electrical inspector you have certainly had some experience with this part of the NEC before now.
Roger
bulldog195169
Member
Re: disconnect between meter can and breaker panel
amazing. the question was asked for the reaction and discussion. fudge factor? how is 10 feet safer than 15 or 11 or 5 still same wire still nonfused. thats my point unsafe is unsafe at 1 foot or 100 ft. it is a perception. you think 10 ft maybe ok to fudge i think fudge is fudge no matter how big or small it is. i am a building, electrical, mechanical, plumbing inspector. and there you have it. cuss and discuss.
amazing. the question was asked for the reaction and discussion. fudge factor? how is 10 feet safer than 15 or 11 or 5 still same wire still nonfused. thats my point unsafe is unsafe at 1 foot or 100 ft. it is a perception. you think 10 ft maybe ok to fudge i think fudge is fudge no matter how big or small it is. i am a building, electrical, mechanical, plumbing inspector. and there you have it. cuss and discuss.
Re: disconnect between meter can and breaker panel
Thank you. There is no need to cuss about it, either live with it or make a proposal to the NFPA or your AHJ to have a disconnect on all services before the conductors enter a building.
The reality is that there are probably very small numbers in the way of recorded problems with short sections of unfused conductors entering a building.
"Short sections" may or may not be a relative term.
Roger
Thank you. There is no need to cuss about it, either live with it or make a proposal to the NFPA or your AHJ to have a disconnect on all services before the conductors enter a building.
The reality is that there are probably very small numbers in the way of recorded problems with short sections of unfused conductors entering a building.
"Short sections" may or may not be a relative term.
Roger
- Location
- Lockport, IL
- Occupation
- Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: disconnect between meter can and breaker panel
From a "building inspector," this is a fair and reasonable question. From an "electrical inspector," who likely started out as an electrician, it would be an unexpected question. But let me address your last comment (about 1 foot being no more or less safe than 100 feet).
The event (i.e., the hazard) that we are trying to prevent is accidental damage to the service conductors at a point upstream of the overcurrent protection. The lower we can make the probability of that event, the safer we can make the installation. In order to reduce the probability of something striking the service conductors, we limit the distance that they are allow to run. That distance is measured from the point at which they enter the building to the point at which the overcurrent protection device is located. It is not reasonable to insist that that distance be zero. The writers of the NEC chose not to set a maximum distance, though some jurisdictions have made that choice. For example, in Washington State, the limit is 15 feet.
It was mentioned earlier that a conduit buried in 2 inches of concrete is considered "outside the building." This should make sense, in new of the "event that we are trying to prevent," as I describe above. If there is concrete around the conductors, it becomes very, very unlikely that anything could strike them and cause damage.
[ October 13, 2005, 03:43 PM: Message edited by: charlie b ]
From a "building inspector," this is a fair and reasonable question. From an "electrical inspector," who likely started out as an electrician, it would be an unexpected question. But let me address your last comment (about 1 foot being no more or less safe than 100 feet).
The event (i.e., the hazard) that we are trying to prevent is accidental damage to the service conductors at a point upstream of the overcurrent protection. The lower we can make the probability of that event, the safer we can make the installation. In order to reduce the probability of something striking the service conductors, we limit the distance that they are allow to run. That distance is measured from the point at which they enter the building to the point at which the overcurrent protection device is located. It is not reasonable to insist that that distance be zero. The writers of the NEC chose not to set a maximum distance, though some jurisdictions have made that choice. For example, in Washington State, the limit is 15 feet.
It was mentioned earlier that a conduit buried in 2 inches of concrete is considered "outside the building." This should make sense, in new of the "event that we are trying to prevent," as I describe above. If there is concrete around the conductors, it becomes very, very unlikely that anything could strike them and cause damage.
[ October 13, 2005, 03:43 PM: Message edited by: charlie b ]
bulldog195169
Member
Re: disconnect between meter can and breaker panel
so as i had said in previous post what is wrong with running the service cable in the attic in conduit and protected just as it would be on the exterior.??? sometimes it helps to think logically. but in all cases it should be protect as much as humanly possible from potential harm. and with that i grow weary of the discussion and bid you all a fond adieu.
so as i had said in previous post what is wrong with running the service cable in the attic in conduit and protected just as it would be on the exterior.??? sometimes it helps to think logically. but in all cases it should be protect as much as humanly possible from potential harm. and with that i grow weary of the discussion and bid you all a fond adieu.
hardworkingstiff
Senior Member
- Location
- Wilmington, NC
Re: disconnect between meter can and breaker panel
In case you check back, good luck bulldog!
Let me change the questions around a little bit. What's wrong with putting a service disconnect adjacent to the meter before you run the wire through the attic?
In case you check back, good luck bulldog!
Let me change the questions around a little bit. What's wrong with putting a service disconnect adjacent to the meter before you run the wire through the attic?
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: disconnect between meter can and breaker panel
Live long and prosper.
allenwayne
Senior Member
Re: disconnect between meter can and breaker panel
Let me change the questions around a little bit. What's wrong with putting a service disconnect adjacent to the meter before you run the wire through the attic?
Nothing at all Ser from Disc. to subpanel and move on to the next one.But that is a far cry from running SER unfused in an attic.
Or a back to back service with no main breaker I saw home after home done like this ,all wired in late 70`s
Let me change the questions around a little bit. What's wrong with putting a service disconnect adjacent to the meter before you run the wire through the attic?
Nothing at all Ser from Disc. to subpanel and move on to the next one.But that is a far cry from running SER unfused in an attic.
Or a back to back service with no main breaker
I saw home after home done like this ,all wired in late 70`s - Status