Dishwasher outlet

[raider1]

Yes but does but that does not say we can ignore other parts of the code. We could locate the receptacle at the front end of the space not the rear.

Parts of the code also call for light fixtures outside but we still have to choose a fixture rated for that location.

I never insinuated that 422.16(B)(2) allows you to ignore other sections of the code.

I was using that section to point out that the 422.33(B) has no bearing on a dishwasher installation.

So your contention Bob, is that a receptacle installed behind a dishwasher is not accessible?

Chris

 

[david luchini]

Yes but does but that does not say we can ignore other parts of the code.

How would this be ignoring other parts of the code? 422.33 relates to the disconnection of Cord-and-Plug-Connected Appliances. But 422.16(B)(2) relates to the disconnection of a "Specific Appliance", namely a built-in dishwasher that is cord and plug connected.

If there wasn't a "specific appliance" rule for the dishwasher, it would fall under 422.33 for disconnection requirements.

IMO the disconnecting means for the DW is not accessible located behind said DW.

My ammunition that supports this thought is that for a range this is only allowed if removal of the draw allows access to the receptacle. 422.33(B)

I don't read 422.33 as requiring that the receptacle be "readily accessible" for all appliances, I read 422.33 as allowing an "accessible" receptacle behind a range ONLY if the range has the removable drawer as mentioned.

In other words, a range without the removable drawer would NOT be considered as meeting the intent of 422.33(A), even though the receptacle behind the range meets the definition of "accessible."

 

[iwire]

How would this be ignoring other parts of the code?

The 422.16(B)(2)(4) says that receptacle can be in the same space as the appliance, it does not say it can be behind the appliance and 422.16(B)(2)(5) requires the disconnecting means to be accessible.

Accessible (as applied to equipment). Admitting close
approach; not guarded by locked doors, elevation, or other
effective means.

 

[iwire]

I never insinuated that 422.16(B)(2) allows you to ignore other sections of the code.

IMPO you are saying I can ignore 422.16(B)(2)(5)

So your contention Bob, is that a receptacle installed behind a dishwasher is not accessible?

Yes

Accessible (as applied to equipment). Admitting close
approach; not guarded by locked doors, elevation, or other
effective means.

 

[iwire]

I have to wonder if we are envisioning different animals here. I have only dealt with the DW units that go into household kitchens. I can remove one screw just above the door at the front of the unit, and easily slide the unit away from the wall without even opening the door, or touching anything inside or underneath the unit.

We are talking about the same thing, normally two screws into the counter and often but not always the plumbing must be disconnected before the unit can slide out.

There are often exposed live parts under the DW.

I do care. I just don't see an electrical hazard.

Exposed live parts are a hazard and there are often some of these right near the plumbing.

Also, the definition of that term is all about damaging the building. Moving a DW away from the wall does not damage the structure. So I can't see how a plug behind an easily removed DW is not "accessible."

You are reading the incorrect definition of accessible, 422 is in equipment for general use, not wiring methods.

Accessible (as applied to equipment). Admitting close
approach; not guarded by locked doors, elevation, or other
effective means.

IMO, an appliance screwed and plumbed into place is 'other effective means' of guarding close approach.

 

[A/A Fuel GTX]

Dishwashers a kind of pain anyway. Regardless of how they are wired, the J box is usually at the front of the unit meaning that the cord/NM-B whip must be routed under the unit, connected and then the dishwasher is slid back into place just begging to damage the cord/NM-B whip. I've always installed a receptacle in the baseboard area behind the dishwasher and used a cord. Maybe an MC whip and a lock out device for the CB is the way to go.

 

[charlie b]

You are reading the incorrect definition of accessible, 422 is in equipment for general use, not wiring methods.

The DW is "equipment." The plug and cord connection is "wiring methods." It is the cord that is required to be accessible, not the DW.

Please note, since you and I have disagreed on a couple items recently, that my perspective is going to be from the words, as written, not from what is best, or what makes most sense. If the words, as written, facilitate a potential safety hazard, then let's change the words.

 

[charlie b]

The 422.16(B)(2)(4) says that receptacle can be in the same space as the appliance, it does not say it can be behind the appliance . . . .

And 422.16(B)(2)(2) limits the cord to 4 feet, measured to the back of the unit. That is not going to reach, if the receptacle is not in the back.

 

[raider1]

IMPO you are saying I can ignore 422.16(B)(2)(5)

If that is the way my post came across I apologize, it was not meant to come across that way.

My point with referencing 422.16(B)(2)(4) was to point out that that section permits the receptacle for a dishwasher to be installed in the space occupied by the appliance. Whether or not the receptacle is beside the dishwasher or behind it it would still need to be moved to access the receptacle.

I understand that 422.16(B)(2)(5) requires the receptacle to be accessible.

IMHO a dishwasher does not render a receptacle installed behind it inaccessible by the definition of accessible as applied to equipment.

Chris

 

[One-eyed Jack]

If that is the way my post came across I apologize, it was not meant to come across that way.

My point with referencing 422.16(B)(2)(4) was to point out that that section permits the receptacle for a dishwasher to be installed in the space occupied by the appliance. Whether or not the receptacle is beside the dishwasher or behind it it would still need to be moved to access the receptacle.

I understand that 422.16(B)(2)(5) requires the receptacle to be accessible.

IMHO a dishwasher does not render a receptacle installed behind it inaccessible by the definition of accessible as applied to equipment.

Chris

The recpt. is not equipment. It is your disconnect. I agree that the wording does allow the rec. in the appliance space. I don't put them there and I don't accept them there because it is useless as a disco for service in that location. That is similar to having to disconnect the water and drain lines on a whirlpool tub to gain access to the pump. The disco must be accessible without removing the appliance.

 

[raider1]

The recpt. is not equipment.

Yes it is.

Equipment. A general term, including material, fittings, devices, appliances, luminaires, apparatus, machinery, and the like used as a part of, or in connection with, an electrical installation.

It is your disconnect. I agree that the wording does allow the rec. in the appliance space. I don't put them there and I don't accept them there because it is useless as a disco for service in that location. That is similar to having to disconnect the water and drain lines on a whirlpool tub to gain access to the pump. The disco must be accessible without removing the appliance.

Please show me the code section that requires the appliance disconnect to be accessible without removing the appliance.

Do you require the receptacle supplying a refrigerator to be accessible without moving the refrigerator?

Chris

 

[One-eyed Jack]

Yes it is.






Please show me the code section that requires the appliance disconnect to be accessible without removing the appliance.
422.33 A You can use the def for equipment or wiring method. If equipment; close approach can not be achieved without moving the DW. Screws,nails,etc are other effective means preventing close approach. If wiring method; screws,nails,etc permanently close it in. All I have seen are screwed in place.
Do you require the receptacle supplying a refrigerator to be accessible without moving the refrigerator?
No. Most if not all ref. have wheels and move freely allowing close approach and access.
FYI. A base cabinet that houses the sink,disposal,dw is all space that the appliance is in. Nothing says or implies that it must be behind the appliance to be in that space.
If it is not accessible it is useless as a disco................
Chris

............................................

 

[iwire]

And 422.16(B)(2)(2) limits the cord to 4 feet, measured to the back of the unit. That is not going to reach, if the receptacle is not in the back.

Of course it will reach, the power connects at the front side of the DW anyway and DWs are only about 24-30" deep.

 

[iwire]

The recpt. is not equipment.

It is, check the definition of equipment.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

I must agree with Bob on this one. Most dishwashers require you to take off the bottom toe kicker to adjust the legs to pull it out. There are all kinds of electrical connections under them. No way in h i am reaching under it live. What most do is wire it direct with a breaker lock or put the receptacle under the sink and drill 1 inch hole for the cord.
Not really sure if nec would permit it behind the dw and even if it does that is just flat out stupid. Takes some serious work to pull one out far enough to reach behind it.
Only reason for cords is so electrician can get finished without plumber.
And most plumbers will not put a cord on a dw and if they do they are doing it illegally.
So now the electrician is still making a trip. So now the electrician must pull out the dw to plug in his cord. Just not a smart way to go.

 

[iwire]

IMHO a dishwasher does not render a receptacle installed behind it inaccessible by the definition of accessible as applied to equipment.

Well I think that is really what it boils down to, each persons interpretation of accessible

IMO, an appliance screwed and plumbed into place is 'other effective means' of guarding close approach and renders the equipment inaccessible.

Let me ask this Chris.

Commercial kitchen, large DW, 3 phase, 30 amp, 480 volt, no place to put a disconnect switch so I cord and plug connect it. (Lets assume the manufacture says cord and plug is OK.)

Can that disconnecting means be located directly behind the DW?

 

[viclibo]

Why all the fuss and wanting to reinvent the wheel ? Just put the dang power source under the sink with the disposal power source like all the millions of electricians have done before.

 

[iwire]

Why all the fuss and wanting to reinvent the wheel ?

Obviously you are new here. :grin::grin:

 

[raider1]

Well I think that is really what it boils down to, each persons intreptaion of accesable

I agree that this really does boil down to each persons idea of what "accessible" means.

IMO, an appliance screwed and plumbed into place is 'other effective means' of guarding close approach and renders the equipment inacesable.

So if a flat screen TV is mounted on a wall with a frame and bolts over a receptacle and all the LV cabling then would the receptacle be inaccessible?

Let me ask this Chris.

Commercial kitchen, large DW, 3 phase, 30 amp, 480 volt, no place to put a diconnect switch so I cord and plug connect it. (Lets assume the manufacture says cord and plug is OK.)

Can that disconnecting means be located directly behind the DW?

Is this a freestanding DW? What I am picturing is the freestanding table type of DW. IMHO provided that the receptacle is listed for the location it would be accessible.

Chris

 

[raider1]

Obviously you are new here. :grin::grin:

Exactly, what fun would it be if we didn't try to re-invent the wheel.

This has been a fun exchange of ideas.

Chris