mtnelect
HVAC & Electrical Contractor
- Location
- Southern California
- Occupation
- Contractor, C10 & C20 - Semi Retired
I was thinking ... Maybe this forum should have a tab called "Confessions". Where could you confess your NEC sins ?
Do you guys think 210.63 (outlet within 25' of HVAC equipment) should have an exception for HVAC retrofits?
- Thread starter rszimm
- Start date
I was thinking ... Maybe this forum should have a tab called "Confessions". Where could you confess your NEC sins ?
hbiss
EC, Westchester, New York NEC: 2014
- Location
- Hawthorne, New York NEC: 2014
- Occupation
- EC
Precisely to eliminate the need for a tech to use a cheater cord to power his equipment. I would say it's more than a convenience.
-Hal
LarryFine
Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
- Location
- Henrico County, VA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
A really resourceful lawyer could possibly find incriminating evidence is something happened.
electrofelon
Senior Member
- Location
- Cherry Valley NY, Seattle, WA
Well we will have to agree to disagree. I am extremely against the code attempting to idiot/brother in law proof things. When does it end of you try to make things safe for people doing dumb things? Answer: it never ends, idiots can be very clever
I ran across this install last summer on a rooftop with half a dozen RTU units. Inside 2 of them, there was a autotransformer connected to the line side of each hot conductor which in turn created 120 volt power which then fed a gfi recep at the unit. I had never seen this set up before. After looking into it, seemed a legit way to get it done as the plugs would really only be used by service techs with the load side shut off. The main problem I saw with it was the disconnect lugs were not rated for double wires in a single lug. Other than that, it seems a legit way to get service plug unless I’m missing something.
hbiss
EC, Westchester, New York NEC: 2014
- Location
- Hawthorne, New York NEC: 2014
- Occupation
- EC
Geeze! I'm servicing this outdoor condensing unit and I need power for my vacuum pump. What's so difficult to understand?? More often than not the service and repair of AC and refrigeration will require the use of equipment that needs power to operate. That's why the Code requires a receptacle within 25 feet.
No different than requiring SABCs for countertops or any other receptacles.
-Hal
electrofelon
Senior Member
- Location
- Cherry Valley NY, Seattle, WA
IMO it is different. Receps inside greatly reduce the use of extension cords that become essentially permanent. Also where GFCI protection is prudent like around sinks, I think the code required outlets and spacing mostly assures people will use the GFCI recep instead of a non GFCI. Again it may be a good design, but im sure HVAC people have 50 and even 100 fort cords if needed. Where is my outlet within 25 feet of all the places I need to do stuff?
ptonsparky
Tom
- Occupation
- EC - retired
IIRC, my first learning experience in conjunction with a wild or hi leg.
electrofelon
Senior Member
- Location
- Cherry Valley NY, Seattle, WA
Yeah I call them "cheaters" and always keep a set with me.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
Why put temp service and/or receptacles for new construction projects? Some the other trades might have corded tools and/or they might have generators to use them with.
Though this required receptacle is IMO more of situation of NEC being a design manual even though it claims it is not one.
You know what happens if you do install said receptacle? It needs GFCI protection nearly all cases, and in 20 years when an HVAC tech does want to use it the GFCI has failed and they end up running a cord to somewhere else. For the initial install they possibly ran an extension because you maybe roughed the receptacle in but haven't finished it yet or it could even be there but not energized yet.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
Only rule I remember in 80's and 90's editions of NEC was for there to be receptacle on the rooftop if there were rooftop units.
IIRC the 25' rule for all situations came along somewhere between about 1999 and 2005 NEC. Maybe as early as 1996 but seems it was later than that.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
That is probably a reason for adding the rule. How many HVAC guys have used that kind of arrangement and tapped onto the supply side of disconnect and had anywhere between 30 and 60 amp breaker supplying it, and used the EGC for their neutral?
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
I have both male and female sets. I tend to use more for troubleshooting situations than for tapping power for tools though, even more so now that most common tools used are cordless.
Want to drive a stake in remote earth and use for ground reference when troubleshooting, or maybe to bring a known good neutral to a remote location for testing? Use one those adapters to connect and use extension cords to extend to the location you are taking measurements.
Many yrs ago, before cordless, what do you think I used when upgrading a service?
electrofelon
Senior Member
- Location
- Cherry Valley NY, Seattle, WA
Years ago when I was working for a guy, we were doing a service upgrade and had some cheaters on the drop for our hope hawg and chargers. We got the new service and some work outlets heated up mid morning. Later that day, might have even been the next day, I'm still using the hole hawg off the cheaters, and the boss comes over, " ya think maybe we should get rid of the cheaters now???"Many yrs ago, before cordless, what do you think I used when upgrading a service?
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
It first appeared in the 87 code with an exception for one and two-family dwellings. The substantiation for new section 210.63 was that this receptacle is required by the mechanical codes, but those codes are not enforced by the electrical inspector, and often the receptacle is not provied.