Do you have to put outlets above kitchen counter?

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Fault Finder

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I have a kitchen remodel. On the outside wall, above the counter where the sink is located, the HO wants no cabinets, no wallspace, no backsplash, only solid glass panels. This design is going to leave no room for receptacles. According to Art 210.52(c)(3), aren't outlets required above this counter space? I haven't pulled the permit yet, and I plan to as the AHJ when I do. I just wanted to ask you guys if you have ever run into this situation. HO doesen't care about outlets above this counter (12'), all other walls & island will have appliances & receptacles.
 
I just noticed the other posts addressing this situation. I didn't look b4 I posted this one. I am assuming there is no way around putting outlets above this space. I should look into a pop up, hard wire it & GFI it.??
 
The HO does not get to decide if he can violate the NEC. The rules are there in spite of the fact that he/she does like them. When they move (or die) from this house others will be left w/o receptacles. They are required.

Choices
1) Change the design and add a space for receptacles or plugmold, or
2) Design a large band at the top front of the kitchen counter and install the outlets there. The outlet cannot be more than 12" below the counterspace.
 
Dennis
In this case the installer does not have the choice of installing below the countertop, that choice is for islands, penninsulas and for handicap installations.
He will have to find a way to install the required receptacles above the countertop. Sounds like it is time to call the architect/designer and the homeowner together...always a lot of fun.

See 210.52(C)(5)

Exception to (5): To comply with the conditions specified in (1) or (2) ...

Read (1) & (2) and it does not give relief to standard countertop locations.
 
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Pierre C Belarge said:
Dennis
In this case the installer does not have the choice of installing below the countertop, that choice is for islands, penninsulas and for handicap installations.
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That may be the wording in the code but I have had to install receptacles on the face of the cabinets before and the inspectors had no problem with it.

If it is okay for an island I cannot see why it should be an issue on a counter but you are correct. In this area, however, that discrepancy is overlooked.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
That may be the wording in the code but I have had to install receptacles on the face of the cabinets before and the inspectors had no problem with it.
If it is okay for an island I cannot see why it should be an issue on a counter but you are correct. In this area, however, that discrepancy is overlooked.
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Inspectors make mistakes, that is one of the reasons why the contractor is ultimately responsible for the installation.
 
Pierre C Belarge said:
Inspectors make mistakes, that is one of the reasons why the contractor is ultimately responsible for the installation.
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Well put and let me emphasize...

the contractor is ultimately responsible for the installation

No matter what an inspector may let you do, if it was a violation of the NEC then it will be forever more.
 
When is it possible to invoke the handicap exception then? Should the EC demonstrate that the HO has handicap license plates? What if the HO intends to live in the house for many years - most people qualify as handicapped once they get to a certain age. What if a handicapped person buys the house next?

I would contend that one can always install the receptacles in front of the lower cabinets and invoke that exception since it isn't BAD design practice to design for the handicapped.

Jeremy
 
jdsmith said:
When is it possible to invoke the handicap exception then? Should the EC demonstrate that the HO has handicap license plates? What if the HO intends to live in the house for many years - most people qualify as handicapped once they get to a certain age. What if a handicapped person buys the house next?

I would contend that one can always install the receptacles in front of the lower cabinets and invoke that exception since it isn't BAD design practice to design for the handicapped.

Jeremy
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Jeremy
If everyone thought as this, anarchy would rule, the world would be a crazy place, and where to install receptacles would be the last thing most people would think about. :rolleyes:

The real issue here is not the receptacle location, the real issue is the designer does not know the requirements and wants to install something that is not conforming. His/her design should include compliance and a good design...hey, a novel idea for designers. :roll:
 
I once had this identical situation. The contractor stood at the front counter for 20 minutes and with every choice I gave him his stock answer was "I can't because...."

I finally told him that he was confusing can't with won't and I didn't care how he took care of it, but the next time I went out there there were going to be outlets installed per the code.

They ended up raising the window about six inches and installing the outlets.
 
I am constantly stuck in situations exactly like this:

THEM: "But I don't want an outlet there...."

ME: "Sorry - but you have no choice in the matter except some of these options..." (Always happy to discuss the mariad of options! A huge waste of my time!)

THEM: "Well I'm just not gonna do it..."


Then there is me meeting the Inspector at rough:

ME: "Ah - My client is refusing required outlets (And/or what ever else they are refusing...) and would like a variance (Which I know they will almost NEVER DO!), or if you could put it on my job card in detail why you won't pass the current design?"

Inspector: "Oh sure... (They know the deal) You would like me to explain to your client why I 'won't pass' the current design - Sure, No Problem."

It always works out, but I always look like the bad guy.... :mad: 'More so than that 'Evil Draconian Building Inspector' who is always on the side of the contractor who is looking to steal my money....'

---------------------------------

On the under the counter recepticals - inspectors locally have given some leaway to that as a compromise to me in the past - I think only out of simpathy of my situation with difficult customers - Otherwise they get stuck looking like the bad guy more than myself. Like I said - they know whats going on.... If you explain yourself right up front. Oh, if they let you - get it in writing....
 
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Pierre C Belarge said:
The real issue here is not the receptacle location, the real issue is the designer does not know the requirements and wants to install something that is not conforming. His/her design should include compliance and a good design...hey, a novel idea for designers. :roll:
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I agree. I started a similar thread a few weeks ago somewhere else asking for design ideas that conformed to code so I had some options to present to the designers I'm working with on the solar powered house at U. of Cincinnati. After discussing the front-mounted receptacles, various things involving plugmold, etc. they decided to do the normal thing after all and put 'em in the wall. Hopefully the students involved remember the discussion at least and can learn from it.

The professor did ask why we couldn't mount them face-up in the countertop like he had at home.:rolleyes:

Jeremy
 
you could always install the wall without the countertop, and put the receptacles in the wall as per the 6 foot code at 14", then if a movable "counter-like" apparatus was later put in front of the wall, like a piece of furniture, well, then it might accidently get "glued" to the floor by a helper that "misunderstood" what was wanted.

These things happen.
 
I ran into this problem in a big custom once. The whole exterior wall was glass with about 25' of kitchen cabinets in front. I managed to get the inspector to agree that it was an island since the cabinets were not attached to the glass. Then it was a matter of letting the HO know it's either outlets high in the face front or no UNO to give to the bank for final draw.
 
danickstr said:
you could always install the wall without the countertop, and put the receptacles in the wall as per the 6 foot code at 14", then if a movable "counter-like" apparatus was later put in front of the wall, like a piece of furniture, well, then it might accidently get "glued" to the floor by a helper that "misunderstood" what was wanted.

These things happen.
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I find this to be the most useful advice. I will run it by the HO today. My contract states that if it dont pass , T&m to correct any violations, Paid in advance.
 
Plugmold with a GFI breaker sounds like the best advice to me.
Surely there's a couple of inches above the counter available.

Just a thought
steve
 
Fault Finder said:
My contract states that if it dont pass , T&m to correct any violations, Paid in advance.
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How can you get paid in advance for T&M work? :confused: In other words, how do you know how much time will be spent?
 
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