do you run a grounding conducter from the meter to the p
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Re: do you run a grounding conducter from the meter to the p
Interesting, because outside the Chicago area most inspectors here are requiring a grounding
conductor from the ground rod to the meter and onto the breaker cabinet.Use of grounding bushings in the meter and breaker cabinet are required. This grounding conductor must be one piece from the rod to the panel.
Sometimes its a real pain in the butt!!!
I assume this is because alot of people forget to tighten the locknuts securely.
Interesting, because outside the Chicago area most inspectors here are requiring a grounding
conductor from the ground rod to the meter and onto the breaker cabinet.Use of grounding bushings in the meter and breaker cabinet are required. This grounding conductor must be one piece from the rod to the panel.
Sometimes its a real pain in the butt!!!
I assume this is because alot of people forget to tighten the locknuts securely.
hurk27
Senior Member
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- Portage, Indiana NEC: 2008
Re: do you run a grounding conducter from the meter to the p
Wireddd
That's because Chicago inspectors havent been able to understand 250.142(A)(1)
Just kidding, Chicago has there own agenda. Or should I say code.
Wireddd
That's because Chicago inspectors havent been able to understand 250.142(A)(1)
Just kidding, Chicago has there own agenda. Or should I say code.
Re: do you run a grounding conducter from the meter to the p
Along with Waynes post, I don't think they understand what the GE's function is. They are also putting the section of conductor between the meter and panel in parallel with the grounded conductor and in turn violating 310.4
Roger
Along with Waynes post, I don't think they understand what the GE's function is. They are also putting the section of conductor between the meter and panel in parallel with the grounded conductor and in turn violating 310.4
Roger
wayne123
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- North Carolina
Re: do you run a grounding conducter from the meter to the p
Doesn't this create a dangerous situation? The N and GEC should be bonded in the meter or the main panel not both.
Doesn't this create a dangerous situation? The N and GEC should be bonded in the meter or the main panel not both.
Re: do you run a grounding conducter from the meter to the p
lets think about this,,,,,what are we trying to acomplish by keeping the neutral and the grounds seperated???? we are eliminating parallel return paths,,,why? because where a ground wire is terminated on the neutral bar,this could impose neutral currents on the non current carrying parts of the electrical sysem.....or if the neutral was to become disconnected the neutral return currents would travel through the non current carrying parts of the system,,,,,including piping and ductwork,,if someone was to come in contact between the piping and a difference of potential ground a shock hazard would exist..or to provide a low impedence ground path to clear a fault...now lets say for some reason the neutral became disconnected in the main panel, where would the return neutral current try to go?IMO the neutral return current would still travel back to the main neutral bar,through the bonding screw in the main panel,throught the metallic parts between the main panel and the meter trying to get back to the neutral point at the meter wether a ground wire was installed between the meter and the main panel or not.In this case it is exactly opposite of a ground fault in the system which travels back on the ground wire,through the bonding screw,to the neutral bar and carried by the grounded conductor back to the source.I may be sticking my neck out here but with all that being said,if a ground wire is installed between the meter and the main panel is it not more than just an additional means of bonding the meter metal to the panel metal if it is at the service entrance?I know the ground wire is not large enough to carry fault current back to the meter like the neutral is but in an open neutral situation we would be relying on the interconnection of the metal parts only to clear the fault.I'm not talking about anywhere else other than the meter and main service disconnect location.
lets think about this,,,,,what are we trying to acomplish by keeping the neutral and the grounds seperated???? we are eliminating parallel return paths,,,why? because where a ground wire is terminated on the neutral bar,this could impose neutral currents on the non current carrying parts of the electrical sysem.....or if the neutral was to become disconnected the neutral return currents would travel through the non current carrying parts of the system,,,,,including piping and ductwork,,if someone was to come in contact between the piping and a difference of potential ground a shock hazard would exist..or to provide a low impedence ground path to clear a fault...now lets say for some reason the neutral became disconnected in the main panel, where would the return neutral current try to go?IMO the neutral return current would still travel back to the main neutral bar,through the bonding screw in the main panel,throught the metallic parts between the main panel and the meter trying to get back to the neutral point at the meter wether a ground wire was installed between the meter and the main panel or not.In this case it is exactly opposite of a ground fault in the system which travels back on the ground wire,through the bonding screw,to the neutral bar and carried by the grounded conductor back to the source.I may be sticking my neck out here but with all that being said,if a ground wire is installed between the meter and the main panel is it not more than just an additional means of bonding the meter metal to the panel metal if it is at the service entrance?I know the ground wire is not large enough to carry fault current back to the meter like the neutral is but in an open neutral situation we would be relying on the interconnection of the metal parts only to clear the fault.I'm not talking about anywhere else other than the meter and main service disconnect location.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: do you run a grounding conducter from the meter to the p
This is so easy and straight forward.
The Neutral is firmly bonded to the meter can.
The Neutral is firmly bonded to the service panel.
An equipment grounding conductor run between these two enclosures is nothing more than a conductor in parallel with the neutral.
It will not add safety and it will end up carrying some of the neutral current.
It is not required by the code to run an equipment grounding conductor between these two enclosures.
It is a violation of 310.4 to run different size conductors in parallel, just as Roger brought up.
The code addresses grounding equipment on the supply side of the service disconnecting means directly
Remember if we have a fault in the meter can we are not trying to get the fault current to the grounding electrodes we want it to go back to the source which is the power company transformer.
I am done venting now :roll:
This is so easy and straight forward.
The Neutral is firmly bonded to the meter can.
The Neutral is firmly bonded to the service panel.
An equipment grounding conductor run between these two enclosures is nothing more than a conductor in parallel with the neutral.
It will not add safety and it will end up carrying some of the neutral current.
It is not required by the code to run an equipment grounding conductor between these two enclosures.
It is a violation of 310.4 to run different size conductors in parallel, just as Roger brought up.
The code addresses grounding equipment on the supply side of the service disconnecting means directly
You will not get a 'better ground' by adding an EGC here. The most effective grounding is the shortest path back to the suppling transformer for a meter can that would be the neutral.
Remember if we have a fault in the meter can we are not trying to get the fault current to the grounding electrodes we want it to go back to the source which is the power company transformer.
I am done venting now :roll:
Re: do you run a grounding conducter from the meter to the p
if the neutral lug is bolted straight to the meter can and the meter can is connected to the main panel with a rigid nipple,then that is a conductive path and it is a parallel path even though it isn't a piece of wire and it isnt the same cir mil as the neutral conductor whether anyone wants to believe it or not.
if the neutral lug is bolted straight to the meter can and the meter can is connected to the main panel with a rigid nipple,then that is a conductive path and it is a parallel path even though it isn't a piece of wire and it isnt the same cir mil as the neutral conductor whether anyone wants to believe it or not.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: do you run a grounding conducter from the meter to the p
Yes that is correct, it is also unavoidable if you have to run a metal raceway between these two enclosures.
Many people will use PVC between the meter socket and the service panel to get around this. Doing it this way also gets you out of having to install bonding bushings.
Intentionally running a wire between these meter socket and the service panel is avoidable and serves no purpose.
Please explain how it will help clear a fault?
Yes that is correct, it is also unavoidable if you have to run a metal raceway between these two enclosures.
Many people will use PVC between the meter socket and the service panel to get around this. Doing it this way also gets you out of having to install bonding bushings.
Intentionally running a wire between these meter socket and the service panel is avoidable and serves no purpose.
Please explain how it will help clear a fault?
Re: do you run a grounding conducter from the meter to the p
sorry iwire I added the reply before removing the fault clearing sentence that was incorrect.I am just saying that yes it is unavoidable to create parallel ground path between the meter and the 1st disconnecting means with a rigid nipple between the meter and the main disconnect even though some are calling it a code violation of parallel conductors,I dont think that applies in this case.,,,,,once you install the bonding screw you have created a parallel return path,(1) being the grounded conductor and (1) being the panel enclosure through the rigid nipple,through the metercan and back to the neutral.look at the post about the inspector making him change the pvc nipple out between the meter and the disconnect,by all rights this is the only way to eliminate the parallel return path,but when he does install it he must use bonding bushings so if there is a fault in the nipple he has positive bonding to th meter and the disconnect to clear a fault,,,,,whats up with that? ps.I thought about your reply the whole time I was mowing the lawn,I didn't mean to ruffle your feathers,just sometimes I can't type what I really want to say and it don't come out right.
sorry iwire I added the reply before removing the fault clearing sentence that was incorrect.I am just saying that yes it is unavoidable to create parallel ground path between the meter and the 1st disconnecting means with a rigid nipple between the meter and the main disconnect even though some are calling it a code violation of parallel conductors,I dont think that applies in this case.,,,,,once you install the bonding screw you have created a parallel return path,(1) being the grounded conductor and (1) being the panel enclosure through the rigid nipple,through the metercan and back to the neutral.look at the post about the inspector making him change the pvc nipple out between the meter and the disconnect,by all rights this is the only way to eliminate the parallel return path,but when he does install it he must use bonding bushings so if there is a fault in the nipple he has positive bonding to th meter and the disconnect to clear a fault,,,,,whats up with that? ps.I thought about your reply the whole time I was mowing the lawn,I didn't mean to ruffle your feathers,just sometimes I can't type what I really want to say and it don't come out right.
hurk27
Senior Member
- Location
- Portage, Indiana NEC: 2008
Re: do you run a grounding conducter from the meter to the p
Now remember most fuses on the line side of the POCO's transformer will not do this as they are only there to protect the primary line feeding the transformer.
Just a little FYI.
[ August 25, 2004, 12:00 AM: Message edited by: hurk27 ]
What would clear a fault in a nipple between the panel and the meter? Nothing short of the wire burning open.
Now remember most fuses on the line side of the POCO's transformer will not do this as they are only there to protect the primary line feeding the transformer.
Just a little FYI.
[ August 25, 2004, 12:00 AM: Message edited by: hurk27 ]
hurk27
Senior Member
- Location
- Portage, Indiana NEC: 2008
Re: do you run a grounding conducter from the meter to the p
To help force the burning open of the line at another point away from the house hopefully. The connection of the locknut's even as good as they seem will start to arc and blow this connection (between the pipe and panel can) open sending sparks and molten metal down the wall instead of causing the wires in the meter to open or on the drop or pole. As Charlie has said in another post not all areas are like this as I found out last Friday with our own utility. They do protect the service wires and transformers by fussing they closer. But look out if there is more than one house on a transformer as it will be fused for the total load and any short circuit in the service wires will have a higher AFC.
[ August 25, 2004, 12:29 AM: Message edited by: hurk27 ]
To help force the burning open of the line at another point away from the house hopefully. The connection of the locknut's even as good as they seem will start to arc and blow this connection (between the pipe and panel can) open sending sparks and molten metal down the wall instead of causing the wires in the meter to open or on the drop or pole. As Charlie has said in another post not all areas are like this as I found out last Friday with our own utility. They do protect the service wires and transformers by fussing they closer. But look out if there is more than one house on a transformer as it will be fused for the total load and any short circuit in the service wires will have a higher AFC.
[ August 25, 2004, 12:29 AM: Message edited by: hurk27 ]
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: do you run a grounding conducter from the meter to the p
jap2525 First do you have a name I can call you by?
You did not ruffle my feathers it is just that this question often comes up and in my opinion it has a clear answer.
I did not say that a metal raceway is a violation of 310.4. I do not believe 310.4 includes raceways used as allowed by 250.118 for EGCs.
I do stand by my statement that intentionally running a wire conductor as an EGC between two bonded enclosures is a 310.4 violation. That is unless this EGC conductor has the same characteristics and is terminated in the same manner as the grounded conductor.
As I said this has come up many times, it turns out in some areas inspectors fail a metal raceway between two bonded enclosures citing 250.6 Objectionable Current over Grounding Conductors.
The original question was this.
Your question about bonding the rigid nipple is different I would say yes, without question this must be bonded.
But again I would suggest PVC to eliminate the raceway bonding and unbalanced neutral current flow across a metal raceway.
Bob
jap2525 First do you have a name I can call you by?
You did not ruffle my feathers it is just that this question often comes up and in my opinion it has a clear answer.
I did not say that a metal raceway is a violation of 310.4. I do not believe 310.4 includes raceways used as allowed by 250.118 for EGCs.
I do stand by my statement that intentionally running a wire conductor as an EGC between two bonded enclosures is a 310.4 violation. That is unless this EGC conductor has the same characteristics and is terminated in the same manner as the grounded conductor.
As I said this has come up many times, it turns out in some areas inspectors fail a metal raceway between two bonded enclosures citing 250.6 Objectionable Current over Grounding Conductors.
The original question was this.
My answer remains the same, no, not intentionally. Of course this is just my opinion.
Your question about bonding the rigid nipple is different I would say yes, without question this must be bonded.
But again I would suggest PVC to eliminate the raceway bonding and unbalanced neutral current flow across a metal raceway.
Bob
Re: do you run a grounding conducter from the meter to the p
Here is a related question to this post. If the utility uses a meter seal to close the meter enclosure, are you allowed to bring the grounding electrode conductor to the meter enclosure or do you have to bring it to the panel. Our inspector sites 250.24A "....at any accessible point...". The inspector feels that since we are not allowed to cut the utility's seal that this makes the connection un-accessible. I disagree for the following reasons.
1. The meter enclosure is owned by the property owner not the utility. Therefore the owner or the electrical contractor he/she hires has legal right to access the meter enclosure for servicing.
2. The seal used by the utility is easily cut with hand tools to allow access if needed.
3. Even if the utility company regulations require notice before cutting the seal, this does not stop access to the connection it only delays access.
4. If access to the connection is urgent I doubt the utility would argue. For example arching in the meter enclosure.
Our utility company regulations do not allow cutting the seal except by utility employees. But the cutting of seals to gain access to the meter enclosure has been a common practice as long as I have been around. We are not trying to steal electricity. We are only trying to make it safe.
Here is a related question to this post. If the utility uses a meter seal to close the meter enclosure, are you allowed to bring the grounding electrode conductor to the meter enclosure or do you have to bring it to the panel. Our inspector sites 250.24A "....at any accessible point...". The inspector feels that since we are not allowed to cut the utility's seal that this makes the connection un-accessible. I disagree for the following reasons.
1. The meter enclosure is owned by the property owner not the utility. Therefore the owner or the electrical contractor he/she hires has legal right to access the meter enclosure for servicing.
2. The seal used by the utility is easily cut with hand tools to allow access if needed.
3. Even if the utility company regulations require notice before cutting the seal, this does not stop access to the connection it only delays access.
4. If access to the connection is urgent I doubt the utility would argue. For example arching in the meter enclosure.
Our utility company regulations do not allow cutting the seal except by utility employees. But the cutting of seals to gain access to the meter enclosure has been a common practice as long as I have been around. We are not trying to steal electricity. We are only trying to make it safe.
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