Do you use copper SEC or Aluminum when you do a service change?

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

While I have't kept the statistics to accurately determine the ratio of failed aluminum to failed copper services, I do know that it is more prevalent in the aluminum wired services. It may be because of the improper torqueing (do you actually torque all of your connections?), or it may be from improper sealing of the cable/connector, but for whatever reason, it seems to fail more often.

I don't condemn any contractor that intalls AL SE cable, that is your own choice, and it is code compliant. I also don't complain about being underbid. Sure, we lose a few just because someone else doesn't have the same costs as we do, but on the average service, the cost of copper SE cable increases our costs by about $225 over AL SE. If I lose a service change over $225, then it's my own fault for not having convinced the homeowner that I would be the better choice.

Then why not give the HO a choice to do the service in aluminum, and explain the differences? 2 prices... the Al lower and if that's what they choose you have a chance of not only getting the job, but also the good P.R. from educating the HO that the lower cost contractor is using an inferior material.

 

[PetrosA]

I second (or third) the request for hard numbers. I've seen 40-50 year old services in copper and aluminum that were in perfect condition, as well as newer services in both materials that burned up. No one has mentioned the fact that a lot of the meter sockets and main breakers made 30-50 years ago were really junky quality (and it's probably not a coincidence that that happened around the same time that they started using AL to cut costs and keep the copper for the war) and regardless of what material went into the cable, the install was doomed.

 

[romexking]

I second (or third) the request for hard numbers. I've seen 40-50 year old services in copper and aluminum that were in perfect condition, as well as newer services in both materials that burned up. No one has mentioned the fact that a lot of the meter sockets and main breakers made 30-50 years ago were really junky quality (and it's probably not a coincidence that that happened around the same time that they started using AL to cut costs and keep the copper for the war) and regardless of what material went into the cable, the install was doomed.

Again, that might very well be the cause, however I believe that using the copper is better for my clients. I also use CR15 outlets because of the better quality...does that make me wrong? Does that make me a thief for charging a little more? I don't think so. Like I said before, there are other benefits to using the copper that I prefer. Mainly, that even with an upgrade, it usually fits in the existing hole in the wall. Use of the copper also makes us different from all of the other contractors around here. That doesn't mean that it's wrong, just different.

 

[Greg1707]

confused on different types of SE

confused on different types of SE

I rarely have a chance to do a service using SE cable. I am confused about the different types: with or without overall covering, round or flat. What is the designation or terminology for these types of SE?

 

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

I rarely have a chance to do a service using SE cable. I am confused about the different types: with or without overall covering, round or flat. What is the designation or terminology for these types of SE?

SEU- flat 2 full conductors, braided ground.
SER- round(ish) 3 full conductors (H-H-N) & braided (G)round.

 

[electricmanscott]

I believe that using the copper is better for my clients.

Ok I'll bite. I'm the client, tell me how spending additional money on copper service entrance conductors will be better for me vs using less expensive aluminum.

 

[rburton]

I have used al for 25 years with no regrets. i am very careful about connections and use alot of antioxidant

 

[zappy]

Ok I'll bite. I'm the client, tell me how spending additional money on copper service entrance conductors will be better for me vs using less expensive aluminum.

Sir you get what you pay for. Copper is more expensive, because it's better quality. Something along those lines.

 

[jxofaltrds]

I thought the question was what do you use! Not who does better work or who is right.

Is using 12-2 better than using 14-2 for a bedroom? Depends.

It is the electrical contractor who decides what is best for a specific job.

 

[yucan2]

I always use copper service entrance conductors, when I do a service change. To make my bids more competitive, I was thinking about using aluminum conductors. What do you guys use? Maybe the savings is offset by needing bigger conduit?

It's taken 7 pages but many of us do just as you propose for the very reasons that you propose it.

If you go with aluminum just use the safeguards mentioned thru-out this post and elsewhere.

 

[mlnk]

On a 200 amp service using 2/0 copper the cost for 30 ft. of Cu is about $70; Using Alum will save you about $30. A two story house would roughly double these numbers. The only extra work is coating the individual strands of Alum with Deox (do not use excessive amounts of Deox) because I torque the Cu connections anyway. It takes more time to install the Alum- it is physically bigger and you need to have Deox avail, but not 30 minutes more at $1 per minute, (or 15 minutes at $2 per minute?) It is a mute point for me: I use Cu because the closest store is Home Depot and they do not sell Alum...

 

[jmellc]

I've always used AL for service changes or new services. Used CU only a time or 2 if requested by customer. I think AL is fine for services and larger ckts such as HVAC. I despise it ever being used for lights and receptacles. Nothing but trouble there. AL does not hold up well to bending and forcing into small boxes. I've done a lot of troubleshooting on it.

 

[jmellc]

Then why not give the HO a choice to do the service in aluminum, and explain the differences? 2 prices... the Al lower and if that's what they choose you have a chance of not only getting the job, but also the good P.R. from educating the HO that the lower cost contractor is using an inferior material.

Around here, price is always the driving force for most customers. They say they want quality, naturally. But price is always the song they sing the most.

 

[kbsparky]

But not all customers. We did an industrial building with 6 feeders and panels. Offered to the customer 2 different prices: Aluminum (cheap) or Copper (Good).

They chose the copper option, even though the cost was several thousand dollars higher.

Always give `em the choice, you never know when they will opt for the good stuff.

 

[electricmanscott]

But not all customers. We did an industrial building with 6 feeders and panels. Offered to the customer 2 different prices: Aluminum (cheap) or Copper (Good).

They chose the copper option, even though the cost was several thousand dollars higher.

Always give `em the choice, you never know when they will opt for the good stuff.

But if you told them that copper was "better" you really were just selling them a higher priced job under false pretenses and essentially they threw away several thousand dollars. Congrats for making the sale though.

 

[satcom]

But if you told them that copper was "better" you really were just selling them a higher priced job under false pretenses and essentially they threw away several thousand dollars. Congrats for making the sale though.

Better would depend on the application, copper may be the only choice in some cases, a job near the ocean where alum may be required, or an industry where vapors may attack the alum, even a damp basement can eat away at alum over time.

 

[electricmanscott]

Better would depend on the application, copper may be the only choice in some cases, a job near the ocean where alum may be required, or an industry where vapors may attack the alum, even a damp basement can eat away at alum over time.

I just replaced resi 200a service this week. It was 42 years old. The cable was cloth covered 4/0 al seu. All the cloth was gone. Just bare aluminum. The panel itself had been getting water for years. The only thing that looked like it was still new was the aluminum wire itself.

 

[satcom]

I just replaced resi 200a service this week. It was 42 years old. The cable was cloth covered 4/0 al seu. All the cloth was gone. Just bare aluminum. The panel itself had been getting water for years. The only thing that looked like it was still new was the aluminum wire itself.

I have also seen that and I also have pictures of alum service cable turned to dust.

 

[LarryFine]

I once had to troubleshoot intermittent power in an addition on a house. As I suspected, the entire new room had been tied onto an existing receptacle. Naturally, the original circuit was aluminum. I was told the breaker tripped on occasion. :roll:

To make a long story short, inside the wall above that last receptacle box, I found the original aluminum conductors completely bare, clean, and shiny as new for about three feet up, and there was no hint of ash or residue of any kind.

The three conductors were straight and parallel from the box KO, and passed right through the staple without touching it, or each other, as if the insulation and jacket were still there, just invisible, and the ends of the plastic were melted smooth.

Obviously, those aluminum wires got so hot, the insulation and jacket slowly vaporized over time, but the aluminum seemed unscathed. It's still one of the most amazing electrical things I've seen, and that was around 35 years ago.

What's my point? I don't know. Oh, yeah, it's that the greatest danger to overcurrent is insulation damage, not conductor damage.

 

[electricmanscott]

I once had to troubleshoot intermittent power in an addition on a house. As I suspected, the entire new room had been tied onto an existing receptacle. Naturally, the original circuit was aluminum. I was told the breaker tripped on occasion. :roll:

To make a long story short, inside the wall above that last receptacle box, I found the original aluminum conductors completely bare, clean, and shiny as new for about three feet up, and there was no hint of ash or residue of any kind.

The three conductors were straight and parallel from the box KO, and passed right through the staple without touching it, or each other, as if the insulation and jacket were still there, just invisible, and the ends of the plastic were melted smooth.

Obviously, those aluminum wires got so hot, the insulation and jacket slowly vaporized over time, but the aluminum seemed unscathed. It's still one of the most amazing electrical things I've seen, and that was around 35 years ago.

What's my point? I don't know. Oh, yeah, it's that the greatest danger to overcurrent is insulation damage, not conductor damage.

That fits in well in a debate of service entrance cable types. :grin:

It also proves that aluminum rocks!