jwelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- North Carolina
Let me change the air handler transformer to a transformer outlined in 411 as I feel sure someone will make some remark to my analogy.
Does 110.26(A)(1) apply to a motor disconnect w/locable controller upstream?
- Thread starter Michael.l.smith
- Start date
- Status
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Hospital Master Electrician
I think you have written a lot of words and said little. I see no reason that substantiates leaving a simple duplex receptacle or a 15A single pole switch out of the requirements of 110.26(A)(1)(a). They are accessible from other than the back or sides, and have renewable or replaceable parts.A remote panelboard on the other hand is outlined in the text therefore requiring the mandated working space.
What do you think about all this?
I think Don stated the matter most simply here:
As long as it says "all", it says "all", and the longstanding practice of leaving certain equipment out of the list is solely at the discretion of the AHJ.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
- Occupation
- EC
I agree that a remote panel can be de-energized before any work is to be done. I will return to this statement shortly.
When addressing 110.26 we seem to want to address this as being directed to disconnects only which is far from the truth. If this were true then every receptacle installed would require a space of 30 inches wide and 36 inches deep around it with nothing projecting more than 6 inches past the finish cover.
110.26 states that there must be; Sufficient access and working space shall be provided and maintained about all electrical equipment to permit ready and safe operation and maintenance of such equipment.
This is an all encompassing statement about ALL ELECTRICAL EQUIPMENT as outlined in the main body of the text with subsections (A) through (G) mandating this working space around equipment.
If we look at 110.26(A)(1)(b) we see that this working space is required for a 24 volt transformer such as those found in air handling units in crawl spaces both under the floor as well as in attics but only if they require examination, adjustment, servicing, or maintenance while energized.
In 110.26(A)(1)(a) and (c) dead-front switchboards, panelboards, or motor control centers are outlined just as in 110.26(C)(E) and (F). In 110.26(C) this work space requirement addresses such things that contains overcurrent devices, switching devices, or control devices.
Now to answer your question I got this information from 110.26 and in ?my opinion? a disconnect for an outside AC or heat pump unit does not fit into this category. There would be no reason to work on this disconnect while it is energized no more than working on the 24 volt transformer in the air handler would require work while energized. Just as the disconnect for the motor that is located to fullfill the within sight rule.
A remote panelboard on the other hand is outlined in the text therefore requiring the mandated working space.
What do you think about all this?
I pretty much agree with what you said here.
What is not clear is what is "likely to require examination, adjustment, servicing, or maintenance while energized"
There is no real definition of what that means and you could ask 10 different people what items are included in this and get 10 different answers. Most will probably agree on switchboards, panelboards, and control panels being included but beyond that they will have differences in opinions. I have taken voltage readings from all kinds of places that do not have 110.26 clearance, and I am sure many others have too.
Having the word 'likely' in that sentence leaves the whole statement up to the readers interpretation.
jwelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- North Carolina
Only if these items require the work while energized. Most will turn off the circuit to do these repairs and those who don?t are in violation of the safety rules of 70E. There is a reason why receptacles and switches are left out or left up to the inspector.
They have had several years to figure this out making me think it is not an oversight.
And all this time I thought that the inspector was limited to what was printed.
In the classroom I answer this with a quote from the NEC
Qualified Person. One who has skills and knowledge related to the construction and operation of the electrical equipment and installations and has received safety training to recognize and avoid the hazards involved.
FPN: Refer to NFPA 70E?-2004, Standard for Electrical Safety in the Workplace, for electrical safety trainingrequirements.
The sad truth is that over 80% of electricians both licensed and unlicensed are not qualified people. They have not received any safety training except, ?don?t do that? and have no clue of the safety rules involved with electrical energy.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Nothing new there, a lot of words, nothing said and mind closed.
SOP for jwelectric
jwelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- North Carolina
It is not me that you are saying that "nothing said." All I did was quote what this site is supposed to be all about, the NEC. Now you and George are saying that the NEC is a lot of words with nothing said and it has a closed mind.
SOP for iwire
jwelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- North Carolina
Then I got to thinking, could I expect anything less from the moderators of the Mike Holt web site.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Speak up Mike, say your mind.
You have NEVER been censored or deleted here that I am aware of.
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
Well I give some credence to everyone here as a lot of what we are all saying can make sense. An a/c unit does need to be running, at times, to service it. Simply put, I may want to put an amp meter on the unit while it is running, etc. Sure I can go back to the panel and test it but that is not likely to happen so in a way that disco will be opened while energized.
I agree with Don that re-wording is called for simply by the fact that this question comes up every year at these meeting here in Raleigh and certainly very often on the forums.
I also echo what Gus said.
I agree with Don that re-wording is called for simply by the fact that this question comes up every year at these meeting here in Raleigh and certainly very often on the forums.
I also echo what Gus said.
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Hospital Master Electrician
No, I think it was plain he was referring to you, not the NEC. :grin:
Boooooooooooooogus!
So now you're saying that they are included in the working space requirement, but only when the inspector feels like it?
jwelectric said:
No, actually the wording does not do that at all:
"Such as" leaves it wide open.
In closing, I'm not sure why you reported your own post, but as always, feel free to speak your mind.
jwelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- North Carolina
Well my friend maybe you should ask all the moderators before making such a statement if you all don?t communicate with each other. I have been deleted. I think it was more a show of power than it was for what I posted but yes I have been deleted.
The snide remarks such as has been made here aimed toward the poster simply because one doesn?t agree with a post is very becoming of a moderator, instead of responding to a post just attack the poster. You didn?t make a comment about the post but instead made a comment about the poster.
I feel sure that this is the type of action that sounds loudest about the actions of a moderator of the Mike Holt?s web site and one that I promise has been looked at before. One that has run off members and we all are aware of this.
I don?t mind someone disagreeing with me but to attack in the way you have, in my opinion says a lot about your character as well as a direct reflection on Mike Holt after all it is his site. Don?t address the issue just attack the poster seems to be one way that you have in disagreeing with posters.
I must say that I do appreciate your comment about my Safe Operating Procedures ?SOP? although I do believe you meant something different. For all I know it could have stood for stinky old cat (insert another word for cat that would start with P) ?SOP.?
If you would like to continue the discussion and leave the insults in your mind and not on this web site I will be glad to elaborate on any disagreements you might have but to continue with the insults I want no part of and will gladly leave you to your arrogant self.
jwelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- North Carolina
And I agree with you about this as I have pointed out in the post above. He didn't say one word about what I posted but was very clear about his feelings toward me, wouldn't you say.
Boy it must be nice to be a moderator on the Mike Holt's site.
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
I am not saying it is an oversight. I am saying that they won't accept reasonable wording. All electrical equipment is likely to be examined while energized, it really doesn't matter if electrical safe work rules say you can't do this. Even if you are using the correct PPE and are troubleshooting, you are still examining the energized electrical equipment and the rules in 110.26.
The issue is the code use of the words "all electrical equipment" and the Article 100 definition of equipment. Why not use the wording of 110.16(E)?
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
If you dislike this site so much why do you keep coming back to it? Maybe you should start your own...or have a friend start one...
jwelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- North Carolina
Is it a moderator thing or what? Where did the implication that I didn?t like this site come from?
Just because I don?t like the attitude of some of the moderators does not mean I don?t like the site now does it?
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
it does to me. If I find a business where I do not like the management, I do not use that business. I just assume that most people are like that.
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
That is exactly what the wording of this section requires. It makes the installation of the required counter top receptacles a violation and is why CMP 1 needs to accept change. We need to read the words as they are actually written as opposed to how they are normally applied. I agree that it would be unreasonable to apply the work space rules of 110.16 to switches and receptacles, but there in no provision in the code that permits those items to be installed with out 110.26(A) work space.
jwelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- North Carolina
I know this was a typo but allow me this just one time. There is no 110.16(E)
For many years there has been proposals sent in to have a laundry list included in 110.26 such as the one you reference to but this would leave out several pieces of equipment such as circuit breakers, fusible switches, control panels, control assemblies and industrial control assemblies, to name a few.
The concept that all electrical equipment will require examination while energized is just plain funny. As I sit here and type I see a one hole strap that I can walk over to and remove while the conductors in the EMT are energized the one hole strap is not.
The code panel also made the statement that no ?working space? relative to safety is required for equipment that will not be worked on while energized.
It is also a given that the NEC is addressing code compliant installations that are being worked on as outlined in 70E. There is no way that the NEC could address all of the coat hanger installations and work ethics of the pot smoking drunks in the construction trades. There is just no way to write a code that will cure stupidity.
Dennis makes the best argument of doing an amperage reading at a non-fused pull out but it is also argued that this reading would be done at the unit not the disconnect. So if it is being done at the unit then would the access to the unit fall under 110.26(A)? If a voltage test was done in a junction box above a lay-in ceiling would that junction box require the clearances of 110.26(A)?
I just can?t wrap my mind around the fact that taking voltage or amperage readings is what is meant as outlined in 110.26(A).
jwelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- North Carolina
- Status