We could quibble about this quite a bit, I see. I do not care to, but I will offer some comment to your post...
I don't think there is a need to quibble, we just may have had different experiences, and I don't think either of us think the OP was in error by posting here. To clear things up, I have no qualms with the OP. To that effect, take some time to read the responses he got and try to do that from the perspective of a 1st year apprentice. Do you think he got a concise answer to his question?
Everywhere I've worked (which is obviously not where you have) interprets the requirements as foremen and above must be JIW's. Granted it is not written in stone... but if I were to go to a job where an apprentice was running the work, I'd turn around and go home, as would most other JIW's I know.
I did work a couple jobs where all of the foremen were fresh toppers. I actually supervised two of them for a time during their apprenticeships, working for other contractors. There was a lot of resentment on those projects among the seasoned JIW's, and I have no respect for that company any more (not that I had a whole lot of respect for them to begin with).
Upper class apprentii running work is rare, but it does happen. Some jobs have JIW's that don't want to run work and if there is a sharp upper class apprentice that does, it just may become so. Especially in control work, where the apprentice may have much more up to date training than any JIW on the job, and savor the opportunity to get some experience running work. I've never seen any resentment, but the few times that apprentii were running work, they were well liked, knowledgeable and respected their unique position.
When I was a 5th year apprentice I was on a conductor testing crew at a NG peaker build. The JIW running our crew got run off (he deserved it) and none of the JIW's on the crew wanted his job. I was offered the opportunity to run the crew (with no raise) and jumped on the opportunity. I had up to 4 JIW's working for me as time went on. None of them wanted to look at prints, use the computer in the office trailer, set up Hi-Pots and record the info, work with the outside testing facility or interface with the engineering personnel or make decisions concerning the effort in any way. It worked out great, no one complained and I learned a great deal and even made some friends in the process.
On other jobs, 1st years' were assigned to a JIW for the day or week, but they also got pulled away quite often from that JIW to do stocking, fetch, housekeeping, and other 'vital' tasks.
Same here, but not electrical work, and my local was very strict about the direct supervision of 1st year apprentii. Late in my 1st year I was working with a JIW that hated scissor lifts. He would be my 'ground crew' while I went up in the lift. He was never out of my sight. I worked industrial maintenance before I became an apprentice and got the habit of flashing the hot and the neutral together before I touched them to make sure the circuit was off. I did that one day and the circuit was not off (well it was earlier) and I made a nice 277 volt fireball. Just as I did that, the foreman walked in. I assured the foreman that I had years of experience with 277 and the reasoning behind what I did. He didn't care. He reamed out the JIW for letting me in the lift alone. Watching from the ground wasn't good enough when working with 1st year apprentii.
Before you made this statement, you should have looked at the time stamp of his posts. Likely after work, and one perhaps at lunch time.
Which tells me he did not have proper supervision if he left work without an answer to his question, which is certainly not his fault.
Immediately available isn't the same as breathing down his neck. :blink:
I agree, but immediately available should at least mean before lunch or before brassing out for the day.
Do you not consider initiative as a quality in an apprentice?
Absolutely! I commend the OP for his question. My beef is not with him, but with whoever is supposed to be his JIW.
How much instruction and oversight do you think an apprentice needs to be able to pigtail receptacles? Constant and immediate supervision thereafter?
At least enough to not have to go home and get on the Internet and ask questions about it.
Granted he should not have to talk to his foreman if he is being supervised by a not-foreman JIW... but in the real world, not all JIW's play the role of instructor very well. Some look at it as training their replacement. Five years to top out is shorter than the time they have until retirement. It's not unusual for some companies to lay off the older non-foreman JIW's first and keep the young guys around longer. Anyway, he may have experienced getting a better reponse on other matters by talking to his foeman. If that were you, what route would you take to get your questions answered?
I spent my entire first year paired up with a JIW. It was mandatory. If we were apart, it was for a few minutes only, and if someone asked me where my JIW was, I had better have an answer. So, I always had a JIW to consult, and if that was not sufficient and class was going on, I would bring my question to class. I had four different JIW's in my first year and they were all great and taught me an enormous amount about the trade. If a JIW was known for not wanting to teach, they were not paired up with a first year apprentice.
Maybe such a practice is considered 'old school', but in Michigan it's a state law that ALL apprentii be under the direct supervision of a licensed journeyman (JIW is a union thing and not recognized by the State of Michigan), and there can only be a ratio of 2 apprentii for each journeyman. In some cases it's one to one.
