Does Generator Breaker/Switch Count as One of Six Disconnects?

[Tom Jones]

I have the feeling this has been addressed before, but I haven't been able to find it on a search.

The particular installation has a GE split bus panel. There are six spaces at the top fed directly from the top half of the 240v bus from the service entrance conductors, one of which is a 100A breaker connected to short jumpers that feed the lower half. So there are 5 circuits fed directly off this bus and 1 that is kind of like a subpanel for the ones below. (Of course some have been twinned for a total of more than 6 circuits served off the top but I aim to fix that separately)

My question is, to bring this installation up to code do I need to blank off one of these spaces for a total of 5 POCO disconnects and 1 generator disconnect, or is there a special dispensation in the code for this?

I hope this all made sense. If I need to clarify just ask.

 

[Daja7]

Where is the generator disconnect located and what does it feed? With split bus panel we always do a panel changeout when putting in a generator. If the seperately located generator transfer switch feeds the entire panel then that becomes the main panel disconnect. The rest are now branch.

 

[david]

I am reading your post to mean you have a separate supply for the emergency system in this building.

Since you did not mention a transfer switch I?ll assume the emergency circuits are totally separate from the normal system in the building no NE loads just Normal and Emergency loads.

A building is allowed a separate supply (service) for emergency systems. You are still allowed a total of six disconnects for the normal service in addition to the emergency service.

 

[Tom Jones]

I guess I should have mentioned that it is a 2-panel system where there is a 60a 2-pole off the lower part of the split bus to a transfer switch (manual) and then a N/E subpanel. So in my way of thinking, if the generator is running, then there are the 6 disconnects in the top of the split bus panel plus the additional disconnect of the transfer switch, generator side for a total of 7 as it stands now.

This whole system is going to get reworked but we are trying to decide the best course of action. It is kind of complicated so I don't want to rehash it all here right now but just trying to get a feel for code requirements. And of course keeping costs down is always nice. I know that replacing split bus is commonly done but nothing else is wrong with it that could not be easily corrected.

 

[Daja7]

trying to visualize the configuration here.
If the sub panel that is connected to the generator via transfer sw. is on the lower half of the split bus then that is a branch feeder that will be shut off with an upper "main" breaker. (one of 6) the generator transfer switch then feeds the new sub panel with loads covered by the generator. As long as nothing in the split bus panel gets feed from the generator it seems everything else is ok.

 

[kwired]

Not quite certain what you have, but the generator is not a service and doesn't count toward the number of service disconnecting means.

Your "lighting main" that feeds the lower portion of a split buss panel is a service disconnect and does count.

 

[Daja7]

Not quite certain what you have, but the generator is not a service and doesn't count toward the number of service disconnecting means.

Your "lighting main" that feeds the lower portion of a split buss panel is a service disconnect and does count.

yea, that. Much simpler way of putting it.

 

[hurk27]

Split buss panels are no longer allowed by code can't remember which cycle they were removed, they were common back in the day of dual rate metering as they gave you the option if feeding 240 volt electric loads from the top half from your heating meter and lighting and branch circuit outlet loads on the bottom half from the normal rate meter.

One of the nice things back then was the ability to use the old double pole breaker that fed the bottom half to feed a manual transfer switch then feed the bottom half of the panel from the transfer switch, the transfer switch didn't need to be service rated as it was fed from the old breaker, but the only problem if you didn't have any space to move any of the two pole (240 volt) loads down to the bottom half you were stuck with only being able to back up the 120 volt loads.

For those not familiar with these split buss panels, they had two separate buses one set for the top unprotected by a main, and one set in the bottom, they would have 8-12 stabs on the top buss, this allowed for 4-6 two pole mains (one to fed the bottom half if split metering option wasn't used) the bottom half had 8 to 12 single spaces for line to neutral loads and the factory conductors from the breaker in the top attached to lugs on the buss for the bottom half, the top half didn't need a main because of the 6 disconnect rule (or movements of the hand) but the bottom still required a main, so if the dual rate metering was done you had to install a back fed two pole breaker in the bottom half or install a separate disconnect to feed it from the normal rate meter.

Remember this was not much different from most older fuse panels where the one 240 volt pull out fuses were fed from the line side separate from the Edison base branch fuses which were protected by the second 240 volt pull out.

 

[hurk27]

I am reading your post to mean you have a separate supply for the emergency system in this building.

Since you did not mention a transfer switch I’ll assume the emergency circuits are totally separate from the normal system in the building no NE loads just Normal and Emergency loads.

A building is allowed a separate supply (service) for emergency systems. You are still allowed a total of six disconnects for the normal service in addition to the emergency service.

I think you miss understood the OP and the fact that Split buss panels were not common in commercial, I would believe the OP'er is talking about an optional back up generator system for a dwelling not an emergency system.

 

[david]

I think you miss understood the OP and the fact that Split buss panels were not common in commercial, I would believe the OP'er is talking about an optional back up generator system for a dwelling not an emergency system.

I seen in another post he stated that there was a transfer switch.

I have seen a lot of split buss panels in small churches so my thinking didn?t go to it needed to be a dwelling.
All he was asking is if had six service disconnects grouped in one enclosure and you have a disconnect for the generator supply mounted beside the split buss panel does that make seven service disconnects.

I may have miss understood. I said you are allowed a generator supply (disconnect) in addition to the six service disconnects

split buss panels (pushmatics) were very common here for small commercial buildings

 

[hurk27]

I seen in another post he stated that there was a transfer switch.

I have seen a lot of split buss panels in small churches so my thinking didn?t go to it needed to be a dwelling.
All he was asking is if had six service disconnects grouped in one enclosure and you have a disconnect for the generator supply mounted beside the split buss panel does that make seven service disconnects.

I may have miss understood. I said you are allowed a generator supply (disconnect) in addition to the six service disconnects

split buss panels (pushmatics) were very common here for small commercial buildings

I was just trying to make sure no one misunderstood that this was not an article 700 type installation and with understanding that yes many split bus panels were used in some small commercial applications it would be very rare for it to be a article 700 install, even a church would be considered at most a article 702 install, 700 will have many requirements that 702 will not have such as a manual transfer switch would not even be allowed as it would have to be automatic to meet the 10 second transfer requirement.

The thing I like about the fact that this is a split bus panel is the ease of installing a transfer switch to it and the fact that the service disconnect remains in the panel allows the neutral and grounding to remain bonded as it is the same location of the MBJ, most split bus panels didn't have an isolated neutral bar as it was directly mounted to the panel enclosure which would give you very little options if you were to try to feed the whole panel as it would be impossible to isolate the neutral and grounding connections without changing out the whole panel, the only problem is being able to move any two pole breakers to the bottom half for 240 volt loads they wish to back up by the generator, this will depend upon if there are any extra spaces.

If the above is not a problem then the job is so much easier because all he has to do is remove the jumpers from the main that feeds the bottom half install the feed to the transfer switch from this main then install the feed from the load side of the transfer switch (common) to the lugs on the bottom bus where the original jumpers were connected to. since he is using a manual TS it makes it a whole lot easier as the code doesn't even require a load calculation even though it would be a good idea since you can't always depend upon the home owner knowing which loads to turn off to keep from over loading the generator, I usually mark the breakers with a color marker for them to know which ones to turn off and mark with another color which ones the can switch back and forth between loads they only need to run once in a while, I use red for ones they can't run on the generator and orange for the ones they can run but one or the other has to be turned off not both, and green for the ones that can or need to be on.

I don't think I have ever seen a pushamatic split bus, most were FPE, ITE, Wadsworth, Westinghouse, and one Zinco and some off brands that are no longer around.

The only hurdle is if the inspector trys to make him change the panel which technically I can't see a reason if it is in good shape and no other violations and it met code at the time it was originally installed which in most cases they did, we had one inspector that tried this but after I sent photo's to the state and they over rode his rejection he never gave us any more problems.

 

[kwired]

I was just trying to make sure no one misunderstood that this was not an article 700 type installation and with understanding that yes many split bus panels were used in some small commercial applications it would be very rare for it to be a article 700 install, even a church would be considered at most a article 702 install, 700 will have many requirements that 702 will not have such as a manual transfer switch would not even be allowed as it would have to be automatic to meet the 10 second transfer requirement.

The thing I like about the fact that this is a split bus panel is the ease of installing a transfer switch to it and the fact that the service disconnect remains in the panel allows the neutral and grounding to remain bonded as it is the same location of the MBJ, most split bus panels didn't have an isolated neutral bar as it was directly mounted to the panel enclosure which would give you very little options if you were to try to feed the whole panel as it would be impossible to isolate the neutral and grounding connections without changing out the whole panel, the only problem is being able to move any two pole breakers to the bottom half for 240 volt loads they wish to back up by the generator, this will depend upon if there are any extra spaces.

If the above is not a problem then the job is so much easier because all he has to do is remove the jumpers from the main that feeds the bottom half install the feed to the transfer switch from this main then install the feed from the load side of the transfer switch (common) to the lugs on the bottom bus where the original jumpers were connected to. since he is using a manual TS it makes it a whole lot easier as the code doesn't even require a load calculation even though it would be a good idea since you can't always depend upon the home owner knowing which loads to turn off to keep from over loading the generator, I usually mark the breakers with a color marker for them to know which ones to turn off and mark with another color which ones the can switch back and forth between loads they only need to run once in a while, I use red for ones they can't run on the generator and orange for the ones they can run but one or the other has to be turned off not both, and green for the ones that can or need to be on.

I don't think I have ever seen a pushamatic split bus, most were FPE, ITE, Wadsworth, Westinghouse, and one Zinco and some off brands that are no longer around.

The only hurdle is if the inspector trys to make him change the panel which technically I can't see a reason if it is in good shape and no other violations and it met code at the time it was originally installed which in most cases they did, we had one inspector that tried this but after I sent photo's to the state and they over rode his rejection he never gave us any more problems.

I know I have seen QO, and GE split bus panels.

I have seen a few 200 amp Pushmatic panels that had two 100 amp mains each feeding a separate bus with branch breakers, I guess that technically is a split bus panel though there are only two mains instead of up to six.

 

[hurk27]

I know I have seen QO, and GE split bus panels.

I have seen a few 200 amp Pushmatic panels that had two 100 amp mains each feeding a separate bus with branch breakers, I guess that technically is a split bus panel though there are only two mains instead of up to six.

I remember only one 200 amp split bus, I do remember a Square D panel that had two side by side busses that each had its own 100 amp main right on the each bus set, the mains were the kind that went across both side of the buss taking up the 1-4 breaker spaces on each bus, I don't know if it would be considered a split buss as it was more like two panels in one cabinet but was fed by separate dual rate meters in a motel, one side fed all the in wall heat/AC units as well as an electric water heater and the other side fed all the lighting and receptacle loads, it was in Florida on a motel we were upgrading the service on because they were adding onto the motel, we ended up with a 800 amp single phase service on that one.

I do wish manufactures would use removable links between the main breaker and the buss so it would make an easy way to install a transfer switch between it, let say have a main with load lugs and lugs on the buss so the conductors to the bus could be removed and the main could then feed to a ATS or MTS then back to the bus, this would eliminate the need for a service rated ATS and the panel would still be treated as the service disconnect removing all the requirements of turning it into a sub panel as well as relocating the GECs, I remember some of the older panels had this, but most now have nothing but a bolted connection from the breaker right to the bus, this would make an excellent method to add a transfer switch to an existing service panel without all the extra work, remove the link conductors install conductors to and from the TS and your done.:happyyes: that is why I liked the split bus panels.

 

[kwired]

I remember only one 200 amp split bus, I do remember a Square D panel that had two side by side busses that each had its own 100 amp main right on the each bus set, the mains were the kind that went across both side of the buss taking up the 1-4 breaker spaces on each bus, I don't know if it would be considered a split buss as it was more like two panels in one cabinet but was fed by separate dual rate meters in a motel, one side fed all the in wall heat/AC units as well as an electric water heater and the other side fed all the lighting and receptacle loads, it was in Florida on a motel we were upgrading the service on because they were adding onto the motel, we ended up with a 800 amp single phase service on that one.

I do wish manufactures would use removable links between the main breaker and the buss so it would make an easy way to install a transfer switch between it, let say have a main with load lugs and lugs on the buss so the conductors to the bus could be removed and the main could then feed to a ATS or MTS then back to the bus, this would eliminate the need for a service rated ATS and the panel would still be treated as the service disconnect removing all the requirements of turning it into a sub panel as well as relocating the GECs, I remember some of the older panels had this, but most now have nothing but a bolted connection from the breaker right to the bus, this would make an excellent method to add a transfer switch to an existing service panel without all the extra work, remove the link conductors install conductors to and from the TS and your done.:happyyes: that is why I liked the split bus panels.

I have installed a few Square D NF panels that do have short conductor between main breaker and bus. I don't think that it is possible to try to get field installed conductors into that tight spot though - especially when you need a set to the transfer switch and a return set. The conductors they send with it are only like 4 inches long at the most and are already bent to fit where they belong.