Does it really matter ? , opinions only please

[dnem]

Lately our ESI chief has been promoting a concept of letting things slide by that don't really matter. An example that he gave was the use of NM in exterior aboveground nonmet liquidtite AC whips [334.12(B)(4)].

What items would you list as things that are in the code, and possibly somewhat ambiguously written, that don't really matter enough to be included in an inspection write-up ?

Let me list my favorite:
210.63 - plug within 25 feet of equipment.
If you called a contractor out to service your AC unit and he showed up in a service van with only one 25 foot extension cord, wouldn't you tell him to get lost and then call a real professional ? I've never even owed a cord shorter than 50 feet. How could it possibly matter if the service plug was 40 feet away. If the fly by night only has a 25 foot cord, why would you trust him to be capable of working on your stuff anyway ?

David

 

[cpal]

If your jurisdiction adopts the document (NEC) it all matters unless you enjoy defending yourself and department in court.

Charlie

 

[roger]

David, I agree, one that irks me in particular is the requirement to reidentify a white conductor in a cable assembly. If anyone in the trade needs this (or is to stupid not to know what the conductor is doing) they should not be in the trade, maybe they should be flipping burgers. This requirement was enacted to protect DIYers (and unqualified trades people I guess ).

Another is the restriction on NM across a drop ceiling in commercial installations, this was simply to appease the metal raceway and cable manufacturers, it has nothing to do with safety.

Roger

 

[celtic]

Let me list my favorite:
210.63 - plug within 25 feet of equipment.
If you called a contractor out to service your AC unit and he showed up in a service van with only one 25 foot extension cord, wouldn't you tell him to get lost and then call a real professional ? I've never even owed a cord shorter than 50 feet. How could it possibly matter if the service plug was 40 feet away. If the fly by night only has a 25 foot cord, why would you trust him to be capable of working on your stuff anyway ?

David

If the "fly by nighter" is expecting a recept. within 25' of the unit ....does that make him any less capable of doing the job?

I would be more leary of the guy with the home made 100' (18 gauge, BTW) cord.

It seems to me that your fly by nighter is more up on code than you would think.

 

[bikeindy]

Lately our ESI chief has been promoting a concept of letting things slide by that don't really matter. An example that he gave was the use of NM in exterior aboveground nonmet liquidtite AC whips [334.12(B)(4)].

What items would you list as things that are in the code, and possibly somewhat ambiguously written, that don't really matter enough to be included in an inspection write-up ?

Let me list my favorite:
210.63 - plug within 25 feet of equipment.
If you called a contractor out to service your AC unit and he showed up in a service van with only one 25 foot extension cord, wouldn't you tell him to get lost and then call a real professional ? I've never even owed a cord shorter than 50 feet. How could it possibly matter if the service plug was 40 feet away. If the fly by night only has a 25 foot cord, why would you trust him to be capable of working on your stuff anyway ?

David

Why should the guy need to drag out a cord at all? I put service receptacles near all equipment. I am friendly that way and like being paid for it.

 

[dnem]

If your jurisdiction adopts the document (NEC) it all matters unless you enjoy defending yourself and department in court.

Charlie

Exactly !
And that's why I said "opinions only please"
I'm not advocating ignoring any requirement. It's just my opinion only that the 25 foot rule is stupid.

As an inspector, I'll enforce what's written, but that doesn't mean that I have to carry a tape measure with me when I'm looking at the AC.

David

 

[dnem]

If the "fly by nighter" is expecting a recept. within 25' of the unit ....does that make him any less capable of doing the job?

In my opinion, yes.
If somebody showed up at my house with nothing but a 25 foot cord, I would think this was his first job ever.

I would be more leary of the guy with the home made 100' (18 gauge, BTW) cord.

I don't think the alternative to a 25 foot cord is a "home made 100' (18 gauge, BTW) cord".

It seems to me that your fly by nighter is more up on code than you would think.

It's not about being up on the code. If this guy is assuming that every house will have all of the requirements of the latest code, then I don't think that instills much confidence in his abilities. I think the real professional would be prepared.

You evidently don't agree with my thought and you evidently like your 25 footer.
Do you have a requirement that bugs you ?

David

 

[bikeindy]

Do you have a requirement that bugs you ?

David

Yep! putting a ground screw in a metal box at rough when I can do it at finish while puting up the fan. ofcource thats not a requirement i just got wrote up for it.

 

[George Stolz]

Lately our ESI chief has been promoting a concept of letting things slide by that don't really matter.

I wouldn't advertise the new principle, for one - it probably goes without saying.

Let me list my favorite:
210.63 - plug within 25 feet of equipment.
If you called a contractor out to service your AC unit and he showed up in a service van with only one 25 foot extension cord, wouldn't you tell him to get lost and then call a real professional ?

Well, I think you're taking it to it's most extreme conclusion. Should a 27' receptacle slide? Would you face litigation? I'd say 99.999% of the time, no. Would your department survive that .001% ? Heck yeah.

You're talking about exercising some perspective, which I wholeheartedly agree with.

For example, I recently installed a Homeline breaker in a Milbank temp (see the Is this a Raceway thread for a picture of a similar temp). I thought it was legal. It failed with a question on the correction: "Are Homeline breakers legal in Milbank panels?" I looked at the panel next to it, and wrote a note on the notice: "Yes, see the neighboring temp's lid. Milbanks accept all major brands of breaker."

It failed again: As it turns out, I read too quickly. 50A Homeline breakers are allowed, but not 20A Homeline breakers. Now, was this a life-threatening condition? It was a temp. Homelines grip busses better than Siemens. I respected the inspector's right to fail it, but I wished he had exercised some perspective in that case. What the difference is between 20's and 50's, I have no idea.

It is a perilous road to walk, when you consciously condone overlooking the code when it seems excessive. It goes without saying, it's a minimum standard that shouldn't be taken lightly. And you're essentially standing "in church" saying (in a way) you're above it. So, there's going to be plenty to chime in to cluck their tongues.

I see it like this: we are all at a different learning stage in construction, physics, and the NEC. What one person sees as stupid, another could see the true purpose of the rule that the first person is missing. The first person in a dangerous position when they decide they are going to loosen up, whether installing or inspecting.

It could be argued that every section in this code can be traced back to a safety hazard.
-Rough memory of a quote from 70E

 

[dnem]

George,
The last part of your post sets a strong message of no deviation from the code even in tiny things.

It is a perilous road to walk, when you consciously condone overlooking the code when it seems excessive. It goes without saying, it's a minimum standard that shouldn't be taken lightly. And you're essentially standing "in church" saying (in a way) you're above it. So, there's going to be plenty to chime in to cluck their tongues.

I see it like this: we are all at a different learning stage in construction, physics, and the NEC. What one person sees as stupid, another could see the true purpose of the rule that the first person is missing. The first person in a dangerous position when they decide they are going to loosen up, whether installing or inspecting.

And that message is strange coming right after the preceeding paragraph that says, "but I wished he had exercised some perspective in that case."

It failed again: As it turns out, I read too quickly. 50A Homeline breakers are allowed, but not 20A Homeline breakers. Now, was this a life-threatening condition? It was a temp. Homelines grip busses better than Siemens. I respected the inspector's right to fail it, but I wished he had exercised some perspective in that case. What the difference is between 20's and 50's, I have no idea.

What kind of "perspective" are you looking for if there can be no deviation from the code at all ?

David

P.S. Remember that I'm asking for opinions only and not advocating acting on those opinions and ignoring any code rule. I'm just asking for everybody to vent on what they see as stupid.

 

[dnem]

Yep! putting a ground screw in a metal box at rough when I can do it at finish while puting up the fan. ofcource thats not a requirement i just got wrote up for it.

Since the inspectors isn't there when you put up the fan do you want him to take your word for it or do you think he should drop random fans and/or lights to spot check ? Do inspectors in your area commonly carry a ladder to access light or fan mountings ? Do they have the time to drop lights on the final instead of just glancing at the box on the rough ?

I'm just not sure what you see as the better alternative.

I'm not trying to criticize you because I asked for people to just vent, but I'm genuinely puzzled as to how you think the inspector should handle it.

David

 

[bikeindy]

Since the inspectors isn't there when you put up the fan do you want him to take your word for it or do you think he should drop random fans and/or lights to spot check ? Do inspectors in your area commonly carry a ladder to access light or fan mountings ? Do they have the time to drop lights on the final instead of just glancing at the box on the rough ?

I'm just not sure what you see as the better alternative.

I'm not trying to criticize you because I asked for people to just vent, but I'm genuinely puzzled as to how you think the inspector should handle it.

David

I have watched inspectors go through on final and use the plug tester to make sure there are no incorrect polarity problems. how do they know I have my fixtures wired in the correct polarity? maybe they just trust that I am professional enough. or maybe they don't care. putting a ground under a screw at rough doesent mean it is there at finish.

 

[George Stolz]

George,
The last part of your post sets a strong message of no deviation from the code even in tiny things.

And that message is strange coming right after the preceeding paragraph that says, "but I wished he had exercised some perspective in that case."

What kind of "perspective" are you looking for if there can be no deviation from the code at all ?

I'm saying there are shades of gray. The only perfect answer to this problem is "cite a code for every violation, and cite every violation."

The problem with that perfect answer is inspections would take a day apiece.

Therefore, some shades of gray must be introduced to the code. Meet 90.4.

But to speak of such things is heresy, and some will say as much. It's the belly-button lint we generally don't talk about.

Remember that I'm asking for opinions only and not advocating acting on those opinions and ignoring any code rule. I'm just asking for everybody to vent on what they see as stupid.

Okay.

• Adamant enforcement of 210.52, and interpretations that expand it even further.
• The dedicated hood versus the 210.23-governed microwave
• 225.32
• Bushings on PVC MA's.

 

[electric_instructor]

Only an opinion

Only an opinion

Well, I have been an electrician for 26 years. One thing I have come to understand is this, - every time I think I've got everything figured out, - I'm proven VERY wrong by a mistake, which had to PROVEN to me!

ONE thing that I have come to understand is this, when it comes to the behaviors of voltage drop, and harmonics, NOT to mention NON-linear loads, it's THIS, - Just when you THINK that you understand the behavior of electricity, - you WILL be proven WRONG!

I have seen some WILD electrical behaviors, as I'm sure you will, if you havn't already!

Electricity is STILL in it's infant stage, relativly speaking. Do YOU claim to know EVERYTHING that there is to know? Are YOU really an EXPERT? Can you claim to explain, and understand ANY electrical situation? I seriously doubt it.

I have also worked HVAC, What is the amp draw of a vacume pump? About 13 amps if I remember correctly?

As an "experienced" electrician, you can tell me this, - what is the "rated" ampacity of a storebought 25' "orange" extension cord, which is of #16 AWG?

OR, I guess the MORE accurate question is NOT the LENGTH of the cord, so much as the AWG gauge of the cord. Since I HAVE worked with HVAC techs before, I can PROMISE you this, THEY have NO idea about AWG gauges, and amperages. DO YOU?

I have seen experienced electricians use a 100' 16 AWG cord for a 15 amp load, and leave 50' of it coiled up! Tell me? what does THAT cause? Do you have ANY idea?

Much better minds than ME, or YOU are STILL attempting to understand electrical science.

In my opinion ONLY a FOOL would claim to KNOW everything!

 

[JohnE]

Let me list my favorite:
210.63 - plug within 25 feet of equipment.
If you called a contractor out to service your AC unit and he showed up in a service van with only one 25 foot extension cord, wouldn't you tell him to get lost and then call a real professional ? I've never even owed a cord shorter than 50 feet. How could it possibly matter if the service plug was 40 feet away. If the fly by night only has a 25 foot cord, why would you trust him to be capable of working on your stuff anyway ?

David

David, this is probably my father's biggest peeve, also. I've heard him say the same thing nearly verbatim 100 times. I think he does enforce the 25' though.

 

[JohnE]

One for me is clamps on nonmetallic 2 gang, 3 gang, and ceiling boxes. When romex is stapled within 12" cables are not going anywhere. Or let's say 6". How is a one gang any different from these other boxes. I use the T & B brown boxes where you clamps come in a separate bag with screws. You then screw them in as needed. (Or not)

 

[JohnE]

Biggest peeve, though? Maybe island receptacles. But we don't want to go there though. It hasn't been a topic for at least a week or so.

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

As an inspector, you as an INDIVIDUAL need to realize this: you are one person with maybe a couple of "code" items you have issues with. Now take all of the electricians an inspector sees during the year or more and add up all of those issues that all of the electricians would like to see as "not inspected". If you catch my thought process, you will see that it is not easy to decide what to let slide and what to enforce. So the best bet to keep all happy is to enforce the code as it is written. KISS!!!

If you do not like to follow the code and don't like having an inspector who does enforce the code, there is alway Wendys or Mcdonalds

 

[mpd]

I think as an inspector you can get yourself in trouble when you start deciding what to enforce and not to enforce, I feel as an inspector once you start letting contractors slide on certain code issues, everytime you fail them they are going to be on the phone asking for a break, IMO it is your job to enforce the NEC as written including any local adoptions, as an inspector your hands are tied.

 

[JohnE]

I responded based on the premise of "what you think is meaningless, useless, stupid, inconsequential, or whatever"; not on what I enforce. That is what I thought op was getting at. I try to enforce the code as written.