Does the receptacles need GFCI Protection?

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websparky said:
Bob,
Home kitchens only require GFCI's at the countertop locations where ALL receptacles in a commercial kitchen are GFCI protected for 125V 15 and 20A.
Right?
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And an office break room/kitchen is not residential or commercial.So other than the recepts within 6 feet of sink any other counter space does not need gfci
 
websparky said:
Bob,
Home kitchens only require GFCI's at the countertop locations where ALL receptacles in a commercial kitchen are GFCI protected for 125V 15 and 20A.
Right?
Click to expand...

Yes that would be a better way to put it.

Jim was under the impression commercial kitchens require less protection than dwelling kitchens, as you point out commercial kitchens actually require more protection.
 
Jim W - I think that to be as you sighted, it would have to not have any permanently installed cooking applicances - then I would agree. Again, most only have microwaves, so with the help of the Handbook, it does not consider this a permanently installed cooking appliance.

Brett
 
Jim W in Tampa said:
And an office break room/kitchen is not residential or commercial.So other than the recepts within 6 feet of sink any other counter space does not need gfci
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Jim if it is not a dwelling it is commercial.

The break room at you local insurance company is a commercial kitchen if it has a sink and permanent facilities for food preparation and cooking.
 
iwire said:
Jim if it is not a dwelling it is commercial.

The break room at you local insurance company is a commercial kitchen if it has a sink and permanent facilities for food preparation and cooking.
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Code book not handy but just what does it call a commercial kitchen ?The food made in this office is not sold or served.Will admit that i only had 1 that was a full kitchen and i do mean a very pricey upscale one that most here would love to own.She also had a dining room with chandeleers.At one point i was believing maybe it was an office/home but that was not the case.My point is i see just as much danger in a break room with a micro that we do in a normal home kitchen.
 
Jim it's easy

210.8 covers GFCI protection for personal.

210.8(A) covers dwelling units.

210.8(B) covers 'other' than dwelling units.

210.8 Ground-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection for Personnel.

(B) Other Than Dwelling Units. All 125-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere receptacles installed in the locations specified in (1), (2), and (3) shall have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel:

(3) Kitchens
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See there is no talk of 'commercial' only 'other than' dwelling unit kitchens.
 
I don't have the Washington State Admin Code (WAC) handy. But what I recall is that it amends this NEC section to clarify that a "kitchen" includes a place where food or beverages are prepared. So a coffee pot and microwave in a break room cause the room to fall under the "GFCI's for everybody" rule.
 
Okay, we've beat this horse to death. All kitchens, other than dwelling units, must have all receptacles GFCI protected. A kitchen is an area with a sink and permanent facilities for cooking. Now let's move on. I have another question.

I just got a call this morning from a service technician. He was called out to the TGI Friday's that just opened a few months ago because they claimed the GFCI's on their refrigeration equipment in their kitchen were tripping and they wanted him to replace them with regular recepts. He told them it was a code violation and then he called me to see if I would allow it. Before anybody trashes me, I told him no I wouldn't allow it. But as the argument ensued, he brought up the old "nuisance tripping" for motors. I told him they had better check their equipment. He says it's brand new equipment and he can't find anything wrong with it.

Any suggestions as to what this poor fellow can do to prevent this tripping issue?
 
If the refrigerator is tripping the GFCI there is either something wrong with the refrigerator or the GFCI. End of story. In most commercial kitchens the refrigerators ar large enough that they are hard-wired. No receptacle, no need for GFCI protection.

Back to the previous subject. The wording of the code is that a kitchen includes "a sink and permanent facilities for for food preparation and cooking". Is the presence of a countertop for making sandwiches a permanant facility for food preparation? I hope this section is clarified in 2008. I have to believe that the intent was that an office kitchen that included a sink, countertop, and microwave or coffee pot would require GFCI, but the way it is written many people interpret it differently.
 
jshaw said:
Okay, we've beat this horse to death. All kitchens, other than dwelling units, must have all receptacles GFCI protected. A kitchen is an area with a sink and permanent facilities for cooking. Now let's move on. I have another question.

I just got a call this morning from a service technician. He was called out to the TGI Friday's that just opened a few months ago because they claimed the GFCI's on their refrigeration equipment in their kitchen were tripping and they wanted him to replace them with regular recepts. He told them it was a code violation and then he called me to see if I would allow it. Before anybody trashes me, I told him no I wouldn't allow it. But as the argument ensued, he brought up the old "nuisance tripping" for motors. I told him they had better check their equipment. He says it's brand new equipment and he can't find anything wrong with it.

Any suggestions as to what this poor fellow can do to prevent this tripping issue?
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You did the only thing you could do without opining yourself to a law suit some day.The EC was asking you to ok what he knows is a violation.His only safe solution is to replace the gfci device.Was this a breaker or receptacle ?Perhaps try another brand receptacle.It has leakage,maybe a wire that sometimes touches the frame.Not easy to deal with and he is crazy if he removes the protection.
 
jshaw said:
Okay, we've beat this horse to death. All kitchens, other than dwelling units, must have all receptacles GFCI protected. A kitchen is an area with a sink and permanent facilities for cooking. Now let's move on. I have another question.

I just got a call this morning from a service technician. He was called out to the TGI Friday's that just opened a few months ago because they claimed the GFCI's on their refrigeration equipment in their kitchen were tripping and they wanted him to replace them with regular recepts. He told them it was a code violation and then he called me to see if I would allow it. Before anybody trashes me, I told him no I wouldn't allow it. But as the argument ensued, he brought up the old "nuisance tripping" for motors. I told him they had better check their equipment. He says it's brand new equipment and he can't find anything wrong with it.

Any suggestions as to what this poor fellow can do to prevent this tripping issue?
Click to expand...

You did the only thing you could do without opining yourself to a law suit some day.The EC was asking you to ok what he knows is a violation.His only safe solution is to replace the gfci device.Was this a breaker or receptacle ?Perhaps try another brand receptacle.It has leakage,maybe a wire that sometimes touches the frame.Not easy to deal with and he is crazy if he removes the protection.

Does anything change because its called BREAK ROOM ? I very much so call a micro a means of cooking.If it sits free on counter top is it now not permanent ? We are seeing break rooms going far beyond the coffee maker here.So far none have been taged but then the micro is not there on final.
 
Guess what critcal word here is missing from definations ,PERMANENT.I know of almost nothing that is permanent.Isnt that what remodels are about ?So i guess there is no such thing as a kitchen.
 
iwire said:
Or most everything is a kitchen.

But I agree 'permanent' was a bad choice of word.
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Just for fun i asked my wife what items would be permanent,when we came to stove she said no.To cooktop she said yes.I then asked her if i could remove it.Keep in mind she is a blonde so not sure if her opinion counts LOL.Yes it was a poor choice of words and in most cases we can easily spot a kitchen,but then there are things that come close like break rooms,family rooms with small bars.I find nothing to say a micro is not a cooking fixture and if built in i would call it close to permanent.
 
Uh Oh, your in trouble now Chris, you have at least one of the b's ( the Chief in fact) mad at you. :D

Roger
 
Jim W in Tampa said:
Are we on the same page ? What i am saying is an office requires less protection than a home.I see them as atleast equal.Not talking about restraunts just offices.
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I don't think we are on the same page ???

An office kitchen requires MORE protection than a home ~ EVERY outlet (15A/20A 120V) gets GFI protection; in a home only outlets that serve a countertop require protection.

210.8(B)(3) vs. 210.8(A)(6)
 
Jim W in Tampa said:
Guess what critcal word here is missing from definations ,PERMANENT.I know of almost nothing that is permanent.Isnt that what remodels are about ?So i guess there is no such thing as a kitchen.
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Anyone in construction will tell you:
NOTHING is "permanent"

:D

See below
vvvv
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