Does UFER require a supplement if no water bond?

[wrobotronic]

Well. Title says it all. if I bond to just the UFER for a Residential 200a service, must I also add two ground rods if no other Grounding Electrode is available? (Water inlet is poly pipe)

TYIA

 

[infinity]

No a water pipe electrode would require to be supplemented but a CEE does not.

 

[wrobotronic]

No a water pipe electrode would require to be supplemented but a CEE does not.

Could you provide code section by chance? Inspector is calling the CEE a single pipe/ rod electrode and this requires a supplement per 250.53A2... I can't find in the code where CEE is not needed to be supplemented.

thank you.

 

[infinity]

The inspector doesn't know the difference between a CEE and a rod/pipe electrode? :slaphead: There isn't much you can say if that is the case.

 

[jumper]

Could you provide code section by chance? Inspector is calling the CEE a single pipe/ rod electrode and this requires a supplement per 250.53A2... I can't find in the code where CEE is not needed to be supplemented.

thank you.

Tell inspector that neither rebar nor a bare CU #4 is a pipe.

250.53(A)(2) and (D)(2) specifically state which electrodes need supplemental electrodes.

 

[gadfly56]

Could you provide code section by chance? Inspector is calling the CEE a single pipe/ rod electrode and this requires a supplement per 250.53A2... I can't find in the code where CEE is not needed to be supplemented.

thank you.

The code is going to be silent on the issue if it's not required, unless it's part of some exception. The code is about what you must do, or must not do. The range of things your are permitted to do is so large you could not fit them in the book. In this case, if you look at the NEC (2014) at 250.53 (A) (2) you will see that only rod, pipe, and plate electrodes are required to have supplemental electrodes. Since there is no mention of the CEE in this section, it's not covered by the requirement.

 

[ramsy]

The inspector doesn't know the difference between a CEE and a rod/pipe electrode? :slaphead: There isn't much you can say if that is the case.

Show inspector last sentence of 250.52(3)
"If multiple concrete-encased electrodes are present at a building or structure, it shall be permissible to bond only one into the grounding electrode system."

Or, use the exception from inspectors own reference 250.53A2
"Exception: If a single rod, pipe, or plate grounding electrode has a resistance to earth of 25 ohms or less, the supplemental electrode shall not be required."

 

[wrobotronic]

The code is going to be silent on the issue if it's not required, unless it's part of some exception. The code is about what you must do, or must not do. The range of things your are permitted to do is so large you could not fit them in the book. In this case, if you look at the NEC (2014) at 250.53 (A) (2) you will see that only rod, pipe, and plate electrodes are required to have supplemental electrodes. Since there is no mention of the CEE in this section, it's not covered by the requirement.

So the bottom line is that I need to convince the inspector a piece of rebar is not a rod per the NEC definition and thus not a requirement.

 

[gadfly56]

So the bottom line is that I need to convince the inspector a piece of rebar is not a rod per the NEC definition and thus not a requirement.

It shouldn't be that hard, as long as the rebar is installed as required. If installed properly it's a CEE, not a rod, pipe or plate electrode. It would require invincible ignorance to see it otherwise.

 

[infinity]

So the bottom line is that I need to convince the inspector a piece of rebar is not a rod per the NEC definition and thus not a requirement.

Good luck with that. If the footing had no rebar you could still make your own CEE with 20' of #4 or larger copper wire. Here are the definitions:

250.52(A)(3) Concrete-Encased Electrode. A concrete-encased elec-trode shall consist of at least 6.0 m (20 ft) of either (1) or (2):
(1) One or more bare or zinc galvanized or other electri-
cally conductive coated steel reinforcing bars or rods of
not less than 13 mm ( 1 ⁄ 2 in.) in diameter, installed in
one continuous 6.0 m (20 ft) length, or if in multiple
pieces connected together by the usual steel tie wires,
exothermic welding, welding, or other effective means
to create a 6.0 m (20 ft) or greater length; or
(2) Bare copper conductor not smaller than 4 AWG.

250.52(A)(5) Rod and Pipe Electrodes. Rod and pipe electrodes
shall not be less than 2.44 m (8 ft) in length and shall
consist of the following materials.
(a) Grounding electrodes of pipe or conduit shall not
be smaller than metric designator 21 (trade size
3 ⁄ 4 ) and,
where of steel, shall have the outer surface galvanized or
otherwise metal-coated for corrosion protection.
(b) Rod-type grounding electrodes of stainless steel
and copper or zinc coated steel shall be at least 15.87 mm
( 5 ⁄ 8 in.) in diameter, unless listed.

 

[kwired]

So the bottom line is that I need to convince the inspector a piece of rebar is not a rod per the NEC definition and thus not a requirement.

A piece of rebar not encased in concrete would be a rod - would also need to meet the rod size/length requirements to use as a "rod electrode".

Encased in concrete makes it a concrete encased electrode - entirely different code section has requirements for this kind of electrode.

How many square inches of surface is there on a 5/8 x 8 foot ground rod compared to 20 feet or more building footing? Even a relatively narrow footing has a lot more surface area then a ground rod has.

The much greater amount of surface contact with the surrounding soil makes the CEE much lower resistance then a simple rod or pipe electrode and the reason it doesn't need supplementing or measuring for 25 ohms or less.

By driving additional rods when you already have a CEE - you are not supplementing the CEE with the rods you are supplementing the rods with the CEE.

 

[jumper]

A piece of rebar not encased in concrete would be a rod - would also need to meet the rod size/length requirements to use as a "rod electrode".

Disagree. A length of rebar would not qualify as a NEC rod. It would prolly work as well, but technically would not be allowed.

(b) Rod-type grounding electrodes of stainless steel
and copper or zinc coated steel shall be at least 15.87 mm
(5⁄8 in.) in diameter, unless listed.

 

[infinity]

Disagree. A length of rebar would not qualify as a NEC rod. It would prolly work as well, but technically would not be allowed.

(b) Rod-type grounding electrodes of stainless steel
and copper or zinc coated steel shall be at least 15.87 mm
(5⁄8 in.) in diameter, unless listed.

Couldn't you have a piece of zinc coated rebar that would meet the criteria for a rod electrode?

 

[kwired]

Disagree. A length of rebar would not qualify as a NEC rod. It would prolly work as well, but technically would not be allowed.

(b) Rod-type grounding electrodes of stainless steel
and copper or zinc coated steel shall be at least 15.87 mm
(5⁄8 in.) in diameter, unless listed.

I covered that with the last part of what you quoted - "would also need to meet the rod size/length requirements to use as a "rod electrode"

Most commonly found concrete reinforcing rods that are just uncoated steel would not qualify as a ground rod, some other types possibly could though.

ADD: They do need to be 1/2" and have 20 feet encased to qualify for using them as a CEE as well.

 

[jumper]

Couldn't you have a piece of zinc coated rebar that would meet the criteria for a rod electrode?

Yes IMO, I was referring to plain everyday stuff.

 

[Ponchik]

250.53(D):
When underground water piping system is used as a grounding electrode, it must be supplemented by an additional electrode as listed in 250.52(A)(2) through (A)(8).

I can not find anywhere where it states CEE must be supplemented with an additional electrode.

 

[ActionDave]

.....
I can not find anywhere where it states CEE must be supplemented with an additional electrode.

There isn't. A CCE/ufer doesn't require one.

Only a water pipe and a ground rod do. And maybe a plate electrode, but who uses those?

 

[jumper]

There isn't. A CCE/ufer doesn't require one.

Only a water pipe and a ground rod do. And maybe a plate electrode, but who uses those?

Ya know I have never seen one nor ever heard of anyone ever installing one.