mivey
Senior Member
The insurer of what was damaged. If it was not insured then the owner of the damaged equipment is out-of-pocket. A deductible just means they are out-of-pocket less money.
Does your PoCo pay?
- Thread starter hardworkingstiff
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I was talking with a University facilities director who was telling me how 10 years ago he walked around campus and counted over 100 trees growing into the power lines on the campus. He called up the PoCo and asked them to trim the trees. Their response was that trees growing is an act of God and they're not responsible. His reply was that he'd buy 99 trees being an act of God but 100 trees is just negligance. The next week the PoCo was out trimming the trees.
Sierrasparky
Senior Member
- Location
- USA
- Occupation
- Electrician ,contractor
I have Had SDGE pay for a transformer that went out and killed the Fridge and TV.
charlietuna
Senior Member
I have had three different issues with FP&L where damage was caused by their actions and they paided everyone of them. They have insurance and you need to "squeeze" them into paying because they are not going to "Admit" ANYTHING!
hillbilly1
Senior Member
- Location
- North Georgia mountains
- Occupation
- Owner/electrical contractor
Yeah, their just like the rest of us, the more claims they have, the higher the insurance premiums go!
mivey
Senior Member
But you have to be able to prove faulty workmanship...a tough nut to crack. The installers are considered to be the experts.
Some POCOs have attorneys on retainer or staff just looking for something to do. Setting financially damaging precedents can be more costly in the long run than just one claim so they might consider it worth fighting.
ItsHot
Senior Member
- Location
- A little piece of heaven!
insurance?
insurance?
Good luck with the insurance thing! :-?
insurance?
Good luck with the insurance thing! :-?
brantmacga
Señor Member
- Location
- Georgia
- Occupation
- Former Child
"excuse me mr. poco rep, will you be paying for damages?"
"nope; squirrels did it."
actually had that happen.
poco spliced neutral about 70' into a 100' arial span and it came apart. I could clearly see it in the air. Lineman attached one end of the span inside his bucket, and they moved the truck down the line, dropping every inch into the bucket. They refused to let us look at it on the ground.
This was at an office building. It smoked the entire phone system and other various electronics.
Oh well.
"nope; squirrels did it."
actually had that happen.
poco spliced neutral about 70' into a 100' arial span and it came apart. I could clearly see it in the air. Lineman attached one end of the span inside his bucket, and they moved the truck down the line, dropping every inch into the bucket. They refused to let us look at it on the ground.
This was at an office building. It smoked the entire phone system and other various electronics.
Oh well.
So , lightning can't cause a transformer failure ?
Sierrasparky
Senior Member
- Location
- USA
- Occupation
- Electrician ,contractor
Those POCO's try to weeze their way out but if you are persistent thaey may pay,
hurk27
Senior Member
- Location
- Portage, Indiana NEC: 2008
anyone can be liable for what they are responsible for, if a utility is responsible for supplying clean un damaging power, then anything out of that realm can be brought to court, remember the court will have the final say.
in any case they will have to prove they didn't cause it as much as you have to prove they did, preponderance of evidence is just that 50% one way or the other.
we have had two times now that the east side of our city was hit with a voltage surge exceeding the normal voltage that would be expected from the utility supply, it damaged a lot of equipment in many houses and also burned down one, they tried to claim, it was because of a lightning strike to a 69kv line as to why it fell down on a 7200 volt line causing the surge, well that didn't relive them of explaining why the surge lasted almost 15 seconds, and why it wasn't cleared by over voltage protection or over current protection, they still ended up paying.
Just because their connections/transformers fail doesn't relive them of the liability to provide clean un damaging power, they would have to prove the connections or the transformer wasn't over loaded, and was kept properly maintained.
This was one time the insurance actually went after the POCO, because of all the claims.
but most of the times they won't because it is just easier to pay for the damage with you paying the deductible, then fighting it in court, but you can, and for the same reason the power company will back down and pay, because its not worth the 50/50 chance of loosing.
many home owners use to just claim damage caused by an electrical problem, such as a lost neutral, as a lightning strike, insurance company's could not dispute it and would always pay, but they have gotten smarter, they now use the National lightning strike tracking network to dispute such claims, and most insurance companies wont pay if you have a problem in your electrical that causes the damage.
so it boils down to how much you have to prove your case against theirs. preponderance of evidence is just 50/50 to go your way or theirs.
in any case they will have to prove they didn't cause it as much as you have to prove they did, preponderance of evidence is just that 50% one way or the other.
we have had two times now that the east side of our city was hit with a voltage surge exceeding the normal voltage that would be expected from the utility supply, it damaged a lot of equipment in many houses and also burned down one, they tried to claim, it was because of a lightning strike to a 69kv line as to why it fell down on a 7200 volt line causing the surge, well that didn't relive them of explaining why the surge lasted almost 15 seconds, and why it wasn't cleared by over voltage protection or over current protection, they still ended up paying.
Just because their connections/transformers fail doesn't relive them of the liability to provide clean un damaging power, they would have to prove the connections or the transformer wasn't over loaded, and was kept properly maintained.
This was one time the insurance actually went after the POCO, because of all the claims.
but most of the times they won't because it is just easier to pay for the damage with you paying the deductible, then fighting it in court, but you can, and for the same reason the power company will back down and pay, because its not worth the 50/50 chance of loosing.
many home owners use to just claim damage caused by an electrical problem, such as a lost neutral, as a lightning strike, insurance company's could not dispute it and would always pay, but they have gotten smarter, they now use the National lightning strike tracking network to dispute such claims, and most insurance companies wont pay if you have a problem in your electrical that causes the damage.
so it boils down to how much you have to prove your case against theirs. preponderance of evidence is just 50/50 to go your way or theirs.
charlie
Senior Member
- Location
- Indianapolis
For some reason I have stayed out of this discussion. :roll:
The general feeling of most courts is that the serving electric utility can't repair what they don't know about. If the electric utility has been notified of a problem and they don't respond in a reasonable time, it is a whole 'nother ball game. This is from our Goldbook, ". . . the customer is responsible for maintaining his wire and cable connections. . ." Tell us about it and we will fix it.
By the way, I don't intend to get into this discussion again.
The general feeling of most courts is that the serving electric utility can't repair what they don't know about. If the electric utility has been notified of a problem and they don't respond in a reasonable time, it is a whole 'nother ball game. This is from our Goldbook, ". . . the customer is responsible for maintaining his wire and cable connections. . ." Tell us about it and we will fix it.
By the way, I don't intend to get into this discussion again.
LarryFine
Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
- Location
- Henrico County, VA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
I'm sure the customer feels the same way: "Tell me my service equipment has a defect, and I'll call an electrician to fix it."
How does the average homeowner know what a looming defect looks like? How often are they supposed to check it?
hurk27
Senior Member
- Location
- Portage, Indiana NEC: 2008
I think the problem is power company's are being pushed to limit outages, and with doing so by the utility commission drive the utilities to under protect wires and relax over voltage sensing, but this is just one area, I have found on many occasions that poorly maintained neutral connections, have cost home owners and or their insurance, millions of dollars in damaged equipment.
What happened to the days they used to have a guy drive around and IR connections, I haven't seen anyone doing it around here in a long time. now since the recent storms this year they have been inspecting their poles for rot and been trimming trees like theres no tomorrow, but still we have many neutral connections even hot connections failing.
But when they have a neutral fail, they just say it was an Act Of God and hope it doesn't go any farther.
I say they have some responsibility to maintain their connections.
IMO I believe the homeowner has a right to expect a utility to provide a source of "GOOD" power.
If you were to get gas for your car and it was full of garbage that did damage to your engine, I'll bet you would not hesitate to go after that gas station with the repair bill, wouldn't you?
Why is this any different?
What happened to the days they used to have a guy drive around and IR connections, I haven't seen anyone doing it around here in a long time. now since the recent storms this year they have been inspecting their poles for rot and been trimming trees like theres no tomorrow, but still we have many neutral connections even hot connections failing.
But when they have a neutral fail, they just say it was an Act Of God and hope it doesn't go any farther.
I say they have some responsibility to maintain their connections.
IMO I believe the homeowner has a right to expect a utility to provide a source of "GOOD" power.
If you were to get gas for your car and it was full of garbage that did damage to your engine, I'll bet you would not hesitate to go after that gas station with the repair bill, wouldn't you?
Why is this any different?
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hurk27
Senior Member
- Location
- Portage, Indiana NEC: 2008
For some reason I have stayed out of this discussion. :roll:
The general feeling of most courts is that the serving electric utility can't repair what they don't know about. If the electric utility has been notified of a problem and they don't respond in a reasonable time, it is a whole 'nother ball game. This is from our Goldbook, ". . . the customer is responsible for maintaining his wire and cable connections. . ." Tell us about it and we will fix it.
By the way, I don't intend to get into this discussion again.
You don't have to respond
But I feel to knowingly allow something to continue, could or should be a criminal Act.
If I allow my car to be used by someone, knowingly that the brakes are bad and can fail, I can be held criminally responsible if someone was to get hurt or killed.
So if you know about something I would say it would be prudent to get it repaired.
There has been many companies that have been charged with criminal neglect, because of not preforming (expected) routine maintenance on equipment, such as big trucks, Airliners, ETC...
But on the other hand, if something is expected like normal line and connection maintenance, I would say this could also be brought up in a court case.
But now with just simple liability, if it is expected that the power to be safe from damaging voltages, then this is just a liability for the damages caused, just like in the gas station, I mentioned.
If I unknowingly did something that caused harm or damage to another, you bet I would be expected to be responsible.
I'm not a lawyer, but to me this is the way it should be.
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mivey
Senior Member
It is not expected that power will be safe from damaging voltages. There is a whole market of consumer products out there because we know it is likely that there will be damaging voltages.
A lot of people get the idea that the POCO is always required to clean power. That simply is not the case. They are expected to make the efforts expected of them based on their rate case. The perception of "clean power" causes debate as well.
If the governing authority (be it a government entity or a group of members) decide that they want better power quality, the POCO makes a rate case to gather sufficient revenues to reach the power quality goals. If they are collecting these revenues, but not delivering the expected power quality, then there is an issue. Could be the cost estimate was too low or a poor performance issue.
They are expected to make a reasonable effort based on the revenues provided for the task.
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