doing design work as an Electrical contractor

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wasabivan

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A new thing came to my attention today.
I was given a set of prints to bid off of for a winery. There are no Engineered electrical plans. just the owners ideas about where he wants stuff.
So I began researching the load requirements for equipment. bottom line, i began to design the electrical for the building. Another electrical contractor told me that our Insurance bond doesnt cover Design, only installs. how do you tell your customer that youve spent 2 weeks designing his electrical system but youre not able to gaurentee your design. also I have no agreement that I will get paid for the design time and im bidding now against another contractor whos facing the same issues.
how would other electrical contractors with more experience at bidding approach this situation, what is a good stratagy to get the job? i was told to bid on a T&M basis. do you agree.
Thanks for the input.
 
I'm not sure what the big deal is. If it's work that doesn't require an engineer's seal, feel free to do it however you know will work and meet the NEC. The insurance things seems weird to me. Electrical contractors "design" things at many levels every day. Many simple, many not so simple. Myself, I'd want an engineer to do this work because I don't like to think that hard.
 
Something is crawling around in the back of my head. Is there a amperage requirement where a engineer is required? Say anything over 400 amps?
 
Here, Master Electricians may do the designing for certain building sizes and types, and a certain $ amount. There is a chart that makes it easy to determine.

I recommend starting at your local building-permit and/or planning-review departments. They can tell you whether you qualify, or what credentials are required.

I've done two, but you bet your sweet bippy that I made sure I covered the time spent designing and laying out, doing calcs, making submissible prints, etc.
 
Bid the job and providea scope of work for what you are bidding. Put a number in the price to have engineered drawings made up after you get the job. Engineers are usually between 3-10% of job cost. If you have somebody you deal with now, ask them what they charge for a job that size.
 
DAWGS said:
Bid the job and providea scope of work for what you are bidding. Put a number in the price to have engineered drawings made up after you get the job. Engineers are usually between 3-10% of job cost. If you have somebody you deal with now, ask them what they charge for a job that size.
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Dood advice. You'd be suprised how long and/or expensive it can be to create submissible plans from scratch. We even have minimum-size paper rules. There's a whole booklet for the plans submittal requirements.
 
If we, as electricians, never had to 'design' anything, we would end up just like the mindless, low-paid burger-flippers.
 
We do this kind of thing every once in awhile. We don't "charge" for the design (yeah, it's included in the cost of the project, but it's speculative at this early juncture) but we don't hand over any fruits of the design labor until we're awarded (on paper) the job. Otherwise, they just take your design, pass it to the next guy, who charges less if for no other reason than he doesn't have any hours in the design phase.

The insurance thing is usually moot, and I agree with Marc there. We're not talking about engineering a life saftey device or anything. Just running some THHN[2] in EMT from some panel(s)/transformer(s) to some devices.
 
mdshunk said:
480sparky said:
If we, as electricians, never had to 'design' anything, we would end up just like the mindless, low-paid burger-flippers.
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Hey! That's hitting a little close to home. :grin:
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Right! Marc is a very concientious, low-paid burger-flipper! :)
 
If your Liability coverage, does not cover design work, and you are not a licensed PE, then how can you do design work?, Sure there are plenty of guys that don't know better, or do know and don't care, but myself, I would not want to sell design work without an engineers, license or insurance.

anything more installation, we bring in an engineer, and in the long run everyone saves.
 
LarryFine said:
Right! Marc is a very concientious, low-paid burger-flipper! :)
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Not any more!

NewJoba.jpg
 
If it's open bid, I want to be bidding the same plan as the other EC. Without a plan 10 ECs will come up with 10 different plans at 10 different prices. The EC that leaves out the most outlets is low bid. I don't want any part of that.

I do electrical designs after I have the job. I'm in the process of rewiring a kitchen that another EC severely under-wired. The design is simple...I get the specs on the loads, wire to the NEC or greater, plus the specific loads of the appliances.

I had another job where the AHJ wanted a load calc to show the existing service was adequate for a 1200 sq ft addition. For some reason their EC couldn't do it.

Dave
 
Here in MN you need Errors and Omissions insurance on top of your other insurance. What you are talking about is a very common experience here. I bid two to three jobs a week that are NOT engineered. Anything from office remodels, a charter school to a 100,000 square foot buildout for a customer.

Here the master can sign the documents, but for most municipalities here, signed drawings aren't even required for the electrical permit. You are liable for the design flaws (Sized service or feeders too small, not enough lighting, fire alarm devices don't meet code, etc.) on top of your "normal" installation liabilities.

You need to submit a very detailed scope letter for your proposal and then educate the general contractor or owner, why your bid maybe higher than the others. Good luck.
 
LarryFine said:
Dood advice. You'd be suprised how long and/or expensive it can be to create submissible plans from scratch. We even have minimum-size paper rules. There's a whole booklet for the plans submittal requirements.
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Thats why I said to get a price from an engineer. Every building dept. is different on their requirments and how long it will take. The engineer I work with takes my budgeted price, gives me a price, I write a scope of work, present bid, if we get the job the drawings get made for submittle. GC's do this all the time.
 
wasabivan said:
A new thing came to my attention today.
I was given a set of prints to bid off of for a winery. There are no Engineered electrical plans. just the owners ideas about where he wants stuff.
So I began researching the load requirements for equipment. bottom line, i began to design the electrical for the building. Another electrical contractor told me that our Insurance bond doesnt cover Design, only installs. how do you tell your customer that youve spent 2 weeks designing his electrical system but youre not able to gaurentee your design. also I have no agreement that I will get paid for the design time and im bidding now against another contractor whos facing the same issues.
how would other electrical contractors with more experience at bidding approach this situation, what is a good stratagy to get the job? i was told to bid on a T&M basis. do you agree.
Thanks for the input.
Click to expand...

In MN we do design allot of stuff and you do have to cover you assets and yes you need to add a couple of coverages like John mentioned..but when you design the install and you believe you are correct in its accuracy your getting the bid depends on you being a salesman because it is not apples to apples..it is about your knowledge of the work you are providing..Now you are bidding a winery what do you know about wine..fermenting processes, bottling, environmental air system, climate controls ect..that is what design is about knowing the product you are designing for..
 
Here in CA we can take plans from an EE or the contractor doing the work. In other words as a contractor you cannot draw and sign plans for another contractor.
 
We have an in-house PE here, who is the owner. We do not carry Errors and Omissions insurance, therefore, we only stamp drawings of jobs we are going to perform. You can as a contractor, however, design a job, estimate it, propose it in detail, then if you are successful, hire someone to review and stamp your drawings. There are guys out there that will do that, but we won't stamp any other contractor's drawings.
If we were doing designs that are to be put out to bid and installed by other contractors, we would be required to carry the E&O insurance, which is very expensive.
 
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