jwelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- North Carolina
Re: doing the minimum
doing the minimum
- Thread starter jbwhite
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macmikeman
Senior Member
- Location
- Planet macmikeman
Re: doing the minimum
Its a trade secret thing over here. By the way, the women are all horribly ugly also, and the weather is terrible. Over here everybody wants to move to South Carolina as soon as we can scrape together enough money to buy a steamship passage.
Its a trade secret thing over here. By the way, the women are all horribly ugly also, and the weather is terrible. Over here everybody wants to move to South Carolina as soon as we can scrape together enough money to buy a steamship passage.
jwelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- North Carolina
Re: doing the minimum
I know what you mean about the ugly women we are all loaded up on the next stage out of town ourselves.
I know what you mean about the ugly women we are all loaded up on the next stage out of town ourselves.
Re: doing the minimum
Getting what you are worth is not collusion it is smart business. The plumbers have figured it out so have most of the HVAC guys (girls)
You do have to know your costs to stay in business and what you work is worth and charge accordingly to make a good living.
When you buy a car there is the base price and extra cost for options, if you want more you pay more. To make more money you charge more and/or reduce cost. Simple. Profit is not a dirty word.
Getting what you are worth is not collusion it is smart business. The plumbers have figured it out so have most of the HVAC guys (girls)
You do have to know your costs to stay in business and what you work is worth and charge accordingly to make a good living.
When you buy a car there is the base price and extra cost for options, if you want more you pay more. To make more money you charge more and/or reduce cost. Simple. Profit is not a dirty word.
macmikeman
Senior Member
- Location
- Planet macmikeman
Re: doing the minimum
Thats all true Shelco, but you still want a car that will go for more than 5,000 miles when you buy one. Thats the point exactly. If you want the options on a new car you got to pay for them. But the car itself, if a higher quality, will sell more units than the bunko car for a comparable price. The quality needs to be there also for customer demand. Its no different in our world. If they want a structured wiring network, that is going to cost. But if I put in an extra kitchen SA circuit, thats my quality getting built into my product. When I wire for a long term customer who is willing to pay me about double what he could get elsewhere, (I have two really steady ones like this), then he is going to get a much better than code job from me. However I will still charge that customer for extra work not shown on the plans. What I don't charge for is the #12 for all receptacles instead of using 14 like the track bangers do. I put in switches for lights, not switched outlets like the code allows, those type of things. For a cheapskate g.c. I will not even stick in a doorbell system. I make the bottom fishers scream for mercy with all my cheapo techniques I use on them. It depends on the customer, and whether I care to continue to work for them or not.
Thats all true Shelco, but you still want a car that will go for more than 5,000 miles when you buy one. Thats the point exactly. If you want the options on a new car you got to pay for them. But the car itself, if a higher quality, will sell more units than the bunko car for a comparable price. The quality needs to be there also for customer demand. Its no different in our world. If they want a structured wiring network, that is going to cost. But if I put in an extra kitchen SA circuit, thats my quality getting built into my product. When I wire for a long term customer who is willing to pay me about double what he could get elsewhere, (I have two really steady ones like this), then he is going to get a much better than code job from me. However I will still charge that customer for extra work not shown on the plans. What I don't charge for is the #12 for all receptacles instead of using 14 like the track bangers do. I put in switches for lights, not switched outlets like the code allows, those type of things. For a cheapskate g.c. I will not even stick in a doorbell system. I make the bottom fishers scream for mercy with all my cheapo techniques I use on them. It depends on the customer, and whether I care to continue to work for them or not.
peter d
Senior Member
- Location
- New England
Re: doing the minimum
Well, since I was one of the people that I believe the OP is referring to, I will step to the firing line.
Bare in mind I am talking about strictly residential, as it is far more code regulated than other occupancies where the electrical installation is at the discretion of designers and/or installers.
I can see absolutely no value in exceeding code minimums, if I am not being paid for it. Now, if we go to the other end of the spectrum, and assume an open checkbook, that doesn't mean I will go crazy with PVC coated RMC either.
I would like to restate the point Mike made earlier. Electricians should be able to do calculations and understand the code, not simply do things they are told would make a "better" installation.
Well, since I was one of the people that I believe the OP is referring to, I will step to the firing line.
Bare in mind I am talking about strictly residential, as it is far more code regulated than other occupancies where the electrical installation is at the discretion of designers and/or installers.
I can see absolutely no value in exceeding code minimums, if I am not being paid for it. Now, if we go to the other end of the spectrum, and assume an open checkbook, that doesn't mean I will go crazy with PVC coated RMC either.
I would like to restate the point Mike made earlier. Electricians should be able to do calculations and understand the code, not simply do things they are told would make a "better" installation.
Re: doing the minimum
From what I have read, the bottom line is that it comes down to the sales aspect. I don't suggest that anyone do work for free, or loose money. To mis-quote someone from another forum, "I can stay home on the sofa and go broke, I dont have to go out and bust my butt to do it".
I do mostly commercial work. When I estimate a job I always add a few bucks for "incidentials".
When something looks like it would be a better idea, even though it was not on the origianl bid, I add it. I make a point of telling everyone involved, in a diplomatic way, that I am doing this at no additional cost. The GC's that I work for like the way I bid and love having some leverage of "free" extras, before asking for money for extras.
I was not refering to any "people". I am sorry if some here found my post to be insulting.
From what I have read, the bottom line is that it comes down to the sales aspect. I don't suggest that anyone do work for free, or loose money. To mis-quote someone from another forum, "I can stay home on the sofa and go broke, I dont have to go out and bust my butt to do it".
I do mostly commercial work. When I estimate a job I always add a few bucks for "incidentials".
When something looks like it would be a better idea, even though it was not on the origianl bid, I add it. I make a point of telling everyone involved, in a diplomatic way, that I am doing this at no additional cost. The GC's that I work for like the way I bid and love having some leverage of "free" extras, before asking for money for extras.
peter d
Senior Member
- Location
- New England
Re: doing the minimum
No worries. I wasn't insulted at all. But I was indeed a very loud voice advocating code minimums.
electricmanscott
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, MA
Re: doing the minimum
I'm working on a house right now and the builders called me on the job today to remind me...cheap!
Exactly what they will get bare bones code minimum. Whoever moves in there better have lamps with six foot cords.
I'm working on a house right now and the builders called me on the job today to remind me...cheap!
Exactly what they will get bare bones code minimum. Whoever moves in there better have lamps with six foot cords.
jwelectric
Senior Member
- Location
- North Carolina
Re: doing the minimum
In my Code Prep and Inspector classes I deal with people who have been in the electrical trade for years.
I have taught Code Prep classes to people who already hold a license and preparing to upgrade to a bigger license.
In the Inspector classes I have taught inspectors that have been inspecting for years and are upgrading the certificate to a higher level.
One of the things that I always have a difficult time accepting is that over 70% of these people can?t even do a simple box calculation let a lone a service calculation. They have become complacent with what they do and have no desire to do any better.
They have convinced their selves that what they do is so much superior to others that they forget what they were taught.
I have said many, many times that there are a lot of real good installers working in the field today but very few electricians and this includes those that hold a license.
When I make a statement as bold as this I don?t feel that I am insulating anyone. If someone is insulated by this statement it was not me doing the insulating it was their own mindset that insulted them.
As a grade school teacher once told me, ?there is no shame in ignorance but a lot of shame in stupidity. It is only the stupid man that will wallow in ignorance when he has the ability to obtain an education.?
When I use a book of rules to install a system and then I am so bold as to say that I know more than that book,-- well you be the judge.
The book that I use starts off with the first line in its introduction as follows.
In my Code Prep and Inspector classes I deal with people who have been in the electrical trade for years.
I have taught Code Prep classes to people who already hold a license and preparing to upgrade to a bigger license.
In the Inspector classes I have taught inspectors that have been inspecting for years and are upgrading the certificate to a higher level.
One of the things that I always have a difficult time accepting is that over 70% of these people can?t even do a simple box calculation let a lone a service calculation. They have become complacent with what they do and have no desire to do any better.
They have convinced their selves that what they do is so much superior to others that they forget what they were taught.
I have said many, many times that there are a lot of real good installers working in the field today but very few electricians and this includes those that hold a license.
When I make a statement as bold as this I don?t feel that I am insulating anyone. If someone is insulated by this statement it was not me doing the insulating it was their own mindset that insulted them.
As a grade school teacher once told me, ?there is no shame in ignorance but a lot of shame in stupidity. It is only the stupid man that will wallow in ignorance when he has the ability to obtain an education.?
When I use a book of rules to install a system and then I am so bold as to say that I know more than that book,-- well you be the judge.
The book that I use starts off with the first line in its introduction as follows.
Re: doing the minimum
Macmikeman, I agree totally with what you say.
My point is that there is a minimum that is very acceptable. And if that is what the customer wants that is what he gets.
your analogy of your customers willing to pay for a higher grade jobs is what I am talking about, these customers know the value it offers. As far as using #12 instead of 14 I seriously doubt that you price 14 and give 12. the 12 price is included, as such you are providing an upgrade to the customer and value. No one sells a Cadillac for a Chevy price. Your thought process is admirable and I wish all contractors had your thought process, it just raises the bar for our industry, the customer gets quality and we get paid what we are worth. Unfortunately there are always those that try to do less than minimum just to increase bottom line when the actual way to increase bottom line is to do more and get paid for it.
Macmikeman, I agree totally with what you say.
My point is that there is a minimum that is very acceptable. And if that is what the customer wants that is what he gets.
your analogy of your customers willing to pay for a higher grade jobs is what I am talking about, these customers know the value it offers. As far as using #12 instead of 14 I seriously doubt that you price 14 and give 12. the 12 price is included, as such you are providing an upgrade to the customer and value. No one sells a Cadillac for a Chevy price. Your thought process is admirable and I wish all contractors had your thought process, it just raises the bar for our industry, the customer gets quality and we get paid what we are worth. Unfortunately there are always those that try to do less than minimum just to increase bottom line when the actual way to increase bottom line is to do more and get paid for it.
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