Double pole switch

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nickelec

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Is it permissible to use a double pole switch to to switch on and off to rows of lights on 2 separate ckts or do neutrals need to be switched as well . And what section applies

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nickelec said:
Is it permissible to use a double pole switch to to switch on and off to rows of lights on 2 separate ckts or do neutrals need to be switched as well . And what section applies

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The breakers for the circuits would have handled tied or use a two pole, 210 something. This is an old rule. Neutrals need not be switched.

Any time you have two circuits one one device this would apply.


Edit: 210.7 is code reference
 
jumper said:
The breakers for the circuits would have handled tied or use a two pole, 210 something. This is an old rule. Neutrals need not be switched.

Any time you have two circuits one one device this would apply.
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404.8(C) Multipole Snap Switches - A multipole, general use snap switch shall not be permitted to be fed from more than a single circuit unless it is listed and marked as a two circuit or three circuit switch.
 
rcarroll said:
Sorry Jumper, I meant to quote the OP
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Not a problem, you bring a good point on checking the listing of the switch. I would think most double pole switch are rated for two circuits, but Icertainly need to check before I could say so.


Makes me wonder now say a switch and receptacle combo. May look into this later, thanks Ron, got me thinking.
 
rcarroll said:
404.8(C) Multipole Snap Switches - A multipole, general use snap switch shall not be permitted to be fed from more than a single circuit unless it is listed and marked as a two circuit or three circuit switch.
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jumper said:
Not a problem, you bring a good point on checking the listing of the switch. I would think most double pole switch are rated for two circuits, but Icertainly need to check before I could say so.


Makes me wonder now say a switch and receptacle combo. May look into this later, thanks Ron, got me thinking.
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How many snap switches have you seen that are marked as two or three circuit switch?

Multiwire circuit is a single circuit and is allowed, but to switch two completely separate circuits isn't.

Won't say I haven't seen or violated this myself a time or two though.
 
kwired said:
How many snap switches have you seen that are marked as two or three circuit switch?

Multiwire circuit is a single circuit and is allowed, but to switch two completely separate circuits isn't.

Won't say I haven't seen or violated this myself a time or two though.
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None, yet
Yep
Maybe, allegedly :D
 
There would also be a prohibition for doing this for 277V circuits, unless fed from the same phase. 404.8 (B). Well technically they could be because they aren't separate devices, but I assume the spirit of the rule would not allow it.
 
This is one of those classic issues where the NEC, UL and the manufacturers are not on the same page. This all started in the 2008 edition when the astute Mr Fred Hartwell pointed out the obvious-if the line to line voltage rating of the circuit does not exceed the switch voltage rating why not allow it as it has been done for years. It became code in the 2008 edition.
Then for the 2014 edition the "experts" were all hot and bothered that this was a violation of the UL standard unless specifically marked "2 circuit or 3 circuit". So it was changed to require this marking in the 2014 edition. Problem is though, it appears that the manufacturers don't seem to care as I have not seen such a marked switch or even seen it mentioned in any manufacturer documentation.
It is this kind of nonsense that goes on in our industry that really bothers me. Things like this leave the typical inspector and the electrician with a situation that you have no hope of sorting out and really knowing what is compliant. If the "experts" think this is such a big deal, the the products should be readily available and clearly marked/documented. I would challenge anyone to find even one reference to this in any device manufacturer's documents.
 
texie said:
This is one of those classic issues where the NEC, UL and the manufacturers are not on the same page. This all started in the 2008 edition when the astute Mr Fred Hartwell pointed out the obvious-if the line to line voltage rating of the circuit does not exceed the switch voltage rating why not allow it as it has been done for years. It became code in the 2008 edition.
Then for the 2014 edition the "experts" were all hot and bothered that this was a violation of the UL standard unless specifically marked "2 circuit or 3 circuit". So it was changed to require this marking in the 2014 edition. Problem is though, it appears that the manufacturers don't seem to care as I have not seen such a marked switch or even seen it mentioned in any manufacturer documentation.
It is this kind of nonsense that goes on in our industry that really bothers me. Things like this leave the typical inspector and the electrician with a situation that you have no hope of sorting out and really knowing what is compliant. If the "experts" think this is such a big deal, the the products should be readily available and clearly marked/documented. I would challenge anyone to find even one reference to this in any device manufacturer's documents.
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I just found these, did not search much, they state 2 circuits. Do not know if strap/yoke is marked.

http://www.hubbell-wiring.com/press/catalog/D-4.pdf
 
jumper said:
Yeah, but those switchs do not satisfy what the OP asked, I need a plain Jane DPST.
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Yep. And take a look at their catalog for, say, a typical commercial grade DPST switch. If you dig long enough, you'll find it is listed to UL20 but that does not in and of itself make it suitable for the OP's application. And I'll bet you if you call the typical manufacturers technical help folks, they wouldn't even know what you are talking about.
 
You don't suppose it has a little of the same reasoning behind requirements as receptacles - you can't run L1 and L2 to the same device without handle ties on the supply side disconnecting means. From what most of us can tell this rule is more there for untrained people then any other reason.:blink:

Even three pole motor rated switches will typically have handle ties/common trip breakers on the supply.
 
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