Double-tapped main lugs

[Coppersmith]

I went to see this yesterday. A HI found the main lugs were double-tapped. The main panel is on a pole outside and feeds this 200 amp subpanel. The tap goes to another 200 amp subpanel beside it.

I'm not sure how to fix this. I think the easiest solution would be to have two sets of lugs in the panel. Do they make double lugs for SqD MLO panels? I thought about using Polaris connectors but there doesn't appear to be enough room. This panel is jammed with 41 circuits, mostly twins. The only other solution would be to intercept the bottom fed feeder in a trough and refeed both panels which would be very difficult because:

* The panel is buried inside a 12" deep kitchen style cabinet. (This is the laundry room.)
* There is a 12" deep counter and floor cabinet below it.
* There is a tile backsplash.
* Behind these panels is the kitchen so I can't work from the back side.

Your thoughts?

P.S. There are numerous other problems with this panel (which I'm sure people will mention). If I had to get it inspected I doubt it would pass.

 

[JFletcher]

There appears to be at least one single pole breaker on the left side and two on the bottom right that have no wires attached to them.

I would see if there's any possibility of combining a circuit, eliminating the spare(s) then feeding the sub panel from an appropriately-sized 2 pole breaker. You're right, there is definitely not enough room for Polaris connectors. I do not know about bolt on double lugs, though I would think they would be available.

 

[Coppersmith]

There appears to be at least one single pole breaker on the left side that has no wire attached to it. I would see if there's any possibility of combining a circuit, eliminating the spare, then feeding the sub panel from an appropriately-sized 2 pole breaker. You're right, there is definitely not enough room for Polaris connectors. I do not know about bolt on double lugs, though I would think they would be available.

I was editing my post as you were posting to mention both subpanels are 200 amp. I would not be able to put a breaker in to feed the other subpanel. In fact, the other subpanel has two 100 amp breakers and 11 breaker slots in use total. I assume they feed other subpanels but I didn't inquire further.

 

[JFletcher]

I was editing my post as your were posting to mention both subpanels are 200 amp. I would not be able to put a breaker in to feed the other subpanel.

Not a 200-amp breaker but you can put in a 125.

I did not see but one Square D kit to put double lugs in, and it was almost $400. More research May yield a more applicable part number that is less expensive, but if the sub panel loads are less than 125 amps, a $40 breaker seems to be the cheapest option.

Edited to add... Your additional information on your latest edit shoots down the 125 amp breaker I would presume, though there is no way all of those panels can be loaded to the gills with a 200-amp service

 

[roger]

These lugs or something similar would probably work.

Roger

 

[Coppersmith]

These lugs or something similar would probably work.

Those look like they would work. The only problem then is convincing the HI

 

[Rsteenson]

These lugs or something similar would probably work.

Roger

I was thinking the same thing. The "A" phase lug appears as if it is a double stack lug already??? Tough to see but the lug will be stamped for (2) if it is.

 

[roger]

Those look like they would work. The only problem then is convincing the HI

Show him the tech sheet and then charge him for the education.

Roger

 

[MAC702]

... The only problem then is convincing the HI

Better yet, just convince the other agent to ignore him.

 

[readydave8]

I went to see this yesterday. A HI found the main lugs were double-tapped. The main panel is on a pole outside and feeds this 200 amp subpanel. The tap goes to another 200 amp subpanel beside it.

the main panel (outside) is 200 amp? so total load is limited to 200 amp? might have to swap some loads between 1st 200 amp subpanel and second, but should be a way to feed 2nd panel from 125amp breaker and it all work fine?

 

[Coppersmith]

the main panel (outside) is 200 amp? so total load is limited to 200 amp? might have to swap some loads between 1st 200 amp subpanel and second, but should be a way to feed 2nd panel from 125amp breaker and it all work fine?

You make a good point. But this thing is already a giant can of worms. Not sure I would want start rearranging it. Remember that there are two 100 amp 2p breakers in the other panel plus 7 other slots in use. Seems like the system may be overloaded. Big house.

I declined this job BTW. Two many potential disasters. I am still curious about the best solution in case another similar one comes up.

 

[infinity]

I declined this job BTW. Two many potential disasters. I am still curious about the best solution in case another similar one comes up.

Just change the lugs as Roger has stated. Forget what the HI thinks about it being code complaint or not.

 

[roger]

I am still curious about the best solution in case another similar one comes up.

Why do you think the lugs wouldn't be compliant?

Roger

 

[Cow]

You make a good point. But this thing is already a giant can of worms. Not sure I would want start rearranging it. Remember that there are two 100 amp 2p breakers in the other panel plus 7 other slots in use. Seems like the system may be overloaded. Big house.

I declined this job BTW. Two many potential disasters. I am still curious about the best solution in case another similar one comes up.

T&M would be the way to go here.

 

[growler]

I declined this job BTW. Two many potential disasters. I am still curious about the best solution in case another similar one comes up.

Sounds like a can of worms and you did the best thing by avoiding all the trouble.

If the only problem was the double lugs that would be different.

 

[growler]

T&M would be the way to go here.

The problem is that you don't find many of these home inspection report type jobs that will go for T&M.

You can bid them a bit high but they want a confirmed price.

They may just be able to drop the selling price by a grand or so and the buyer accept things as-is.

 

[Cow]

The problem is that you don't find many of these home inspection report type jobs that will go for T&M.

You can bid them a bit high but they want a confirmed price.

They may just be able to drop the selling price by a grand or so and the buyer accept things as-is.

I realize that was probably the case, but I also realize that isn't our problem, that is the customers issue to work through. They could certainly try and hire another EC willing to quote it.

 

[ritelec]

You can bid

They may just be able to drop the selling price and the buyer accept things as-is.

Been on several "Buyers" home inspection repair of (sometimes pretty major) ...........( "Oh we want you to do the work when we get the house" )
time looking at job..getting and submitting proposal.

Years later... sales went through and I'm still waiting for the call to do the work.


Those darn free estimates are a killer, but when it come to realtors or buyers asking for quotes, there's a paid estimate fee.

 

[Coppersmith]

Been on several "Buyers" home inspection repair of (sometimes pretty major) ...........( "Oh we want you to do the work when we get the house" )
time looking at job..getting and submitting proposal.

Years later... sales went through and I'm still waiting for the call to do the work.


Those darn free estimates are a killer, but when it come to realtors or buyers asking for quotes, there's a paid estimate fee.

Exactly why I offer free estimates to everybody except real estate agents. For them $50.

 

[Coppersmith]

Why do you think the lugs wouldn't be compliant?

I think the lugs would be compliant. I still don't want to touch this job: super crowded panel, panel buried behind a 12" deep cabinet, numerous existing code violations, having to explain double lugs to buyer, seller, and HI, overloaded based on breaker sizes and number. I don't want to be the last person who touched this just for the liability exposure.