"Dry Cabin"

[jxofaltrds]

I believe there are Amish colonies in Ohio, not sure if any are near you. The ones around here are outside of cities and villages. They have moved into existing homes and had electricity disconnected also. If power is ever desired in these homes someday a permit will be required before POCO will energize the service. These people will not subscribe to utility power, but they will use portable generators and power tools:?

As a matter of fact a buggy when by just after I got home.

Never did get the power tool thing. Must be like being kinda pregnant.:blink:

 

[jwelectric]

I understand the definition of dwelling unit found in the NEC but there are several different codes that come into play with a dwelling unit that has to be adhered to also.

The NEC does not require any type of draft stop. There is no requirement to install a bath fan in the NEC. Although neither of these are a requirement of the NEC can we just leave them out for that reason?

With this ?dry cabin? there are many different codes that will come into play on how they are to be constructed and some of the things outlined in this thread would not be allowed in NC.

As to the heat and cooking there is nothing in the NEC that mandates that these be included either but other codes mandate their installation. They don?t have to be electrical either.

So in conclusion we can say that the NEC would not define this as a dwelling unit but how about all the other codes in your area, what do they say? If any of the codes in your area call this a dwelling unit I would say that the NEC would have to be adhered to also.

 

[raider1]

From a building code stand point a "Dry Cabin" would have to be defined as a sleeping unit as it does not meet the definition of dwelling unit. (Dwelling unit: A single unit providing complete, independent living facilities for one or more persons, including permanent provisions for living, sleeping, eating, cooking, and sanitation.)

This would mean that the IRC would not apply and the building would have to fall under the IBC. This would most likely be classified as an R-2 or R-3 building. The zoning laws in the area would dictate whether or not an R-2 or R-3 building could be built.

Due to the fact that the building would not be a dwelling unit the rules in the NEC that apply only to dwelling units would not apply in this circumstance.

Chris

 

[jxofaltrds]

From a building code stand point a "Dry Cabin" would have to be defined as a sleeping unit as it does not meet the definition of dwelling unit. (Dwelling unit: A single unit providing complete, independent living facilities for one or more persons, including permanent provisions for living, sleeping, eating, cooking, and sanitation.)

This would mean that the IRC would not apply and the building would have to fall under the IBC. This would most likely be classified as an R-2 or R-3 building. The zoning laws in the area would dictate whether or not an R-2 or R-3 building could be built.

Due to the fact that the building would not be a dwelling unit the rules in the NEC that apply only to dwelling units would not apply in this circumstance.

Chris

First you (builder,contractor,owner) have to tell the AHJ, plans examineer, what the use is! No part of the code can be used/applied untill you know the use!

 

[iceworm]

First you (builder,contractor,owner) have to tell the AHJ, plans examineer, what the use is! No part of the code can be used/applied untill you know the use!

For the purposes of my questions. I thought I was pretty clear.

... I'll define "dry cabin" as a structure with everything one would find in a normal house except: no water system, no indoor sanitation facilities, has a separate outhouse. Water for cooking/washing is usually brought in with jugs. ...

Picture yourself as an AHJ. Would this statement leave you confused as to the intended use?

The questions are really pretty simple. But you will have to read post one to see them.

ice

 

[jxofaltrds]

For the purposes of my questions. I thought I was pretty clear.



Picture yourself as an AHJ. Would this statement leave you confused as to the intended use?

The questions are really pretty simple. But you will have to read post one to see them.

ice

No you were not clear. It is your responsibilty to 'claim' the use. Not the AHJ.

The AHJ can do nothing until you tell him what you want to do!

 

[iceworm]

No you were not clear. It is your responsibilty to 'claim' the use. Not the AHJ.

The AHJ can do nothing until you tell him what you want to do!

Uhmmmm...... not clear.......... Okay
Hum........ I'm going to guess you did not read post 1. And that's okay - really it is

ice

 

[jxofaltrds]

Uhmmmm...... not clear.......... Okay
Hum........ I'm going to guess you did not read post 1. And that's okay - really it is

ice

OK I read #1 again. Maybe I am not clear.

The AHJ does not determine use. Not his job.

Those who want to use have to declare that use.

 

[iceworm]

OK I read #1 again. Maybe I am not clear. ...

Nope. You are not clear. Or, perhaps more correctly: Yes, you are not clear.

Anyone else got any thoughts?

ice

 

[jxofaltrds]

You can blame charlie b for me dredging this up:

It concerns the definition of "dwelling unit". I don't do much with residential, so I don't know what is the norm. Consider this just a curiosity question.

I'll define "dry cabin" as a structure with everything one would find in a normal house except: no water system, no indoor sanitation facilities, has a separate outhouse. Water for cooking/washing is usually brought in with jugs.

Yes there are plenty near where I live. One does not have to get very far from town. There are plenty of reasons why - but that isn't the question.

Qs: In the opinion of the responders:
1. Does the NEC considered a "dry cabin" is a "dwelling unit"? And, why do you think that?

2. How do you think the AHJ/inspectors in your area would respond? To be fair, you would have to pick an area where there is no easy access to commercial power or supplied pressure water, an area where septic systems are okay.

ice

Question #1 No. I think that because the NEC does not determine 'use'. The building dept. does after you tell them what you want to do with the real estate.

Question #2 See my previous comments. NO responsible building department will determine the 'use' pre construction. They may be forced to after the fact but again not their job.

While you may not agree with my posts are they clear?

 

[Gregg Harris]

Nope. You are not clear. Or, perhaps more correctly: Yes, you are not clear.

Anyone else got any thoughts?

ice

Right now as it stands the cabin would not have a listing under IRC and it does not qualify to be considerd under IBC. Since it is off the grid, a well could provide the water and a generator could provide the electric. Cooking could be provided in a number of ways. Depending on the actual location it may not fall under any jurisdiction other than the owner.

 

[Little Bill]

Question #1 - No, it is not a dwelling unit.

Question #2 - If no service was requested/applied for, the AHJ would have no reason to say or do anything. AHJ, meaning "electrical".
If the area, including rural areas, had a building code, then they might have some say into the structure. If no intent/purpose of use was submitted, I suppose they (building official) would be forced to define the structure after it was built.

 

[iceworm]

Question #1 No. I think that because the NEC does not determine 'use'. The building dept. does after you tell them what you want to do with the real estate.

Question #2 See my previous comments. NO responsible building department will determine the 'use' pre construction. They may be forced to after the fact but again not their job.

While you may not agree with my posts are they clear?

I don't either agree or disagree. I'm merely curious about others opinions about a common building method in the area where I live. I don't have a dog in the fight of right or wrong.

Okay, I'll translate your answers as:
1. The building dept determines if the structure is a "dwelling". And would force the NEC AHJ to treat the structure as such regardless of the NEC definition.

2. The answer is non-responsive. However, You have brought to my attention I am fortunate to live in an area with a NON-responsible building dept that is capable of understanding the structure I described is intended to be house where people eat, live, breathe,sleep ..., just don't poop.

Thanks Mike. Continuing on.

ice

 

[jxofaltrds]

I don't either agree or disagree. I'm merely curious about others opinions about a common building method in the area where I live. I don't have a dog in the fight of right or wrong.

Okay, I'll translate your answers as:
1. The building dept determines if the structure is a "dwelling". And would force the NEC AHJ to treat the structure as such regardless of the NEC definition.

2. The answer is non-responsive. However, You have brought to my attention I am fortunate to live in an area with a NON-responsible building dept that is capable of understanding the structure I described is intended to be house where people eat, live, breathe,sleep ..., just don't poop.

Thanks Mike. Continuing on.

ice

You ask questions for experts to answer. For some reason you choose to dismiss them because?????????

If you already have the answer from those in your area why ask?

Side note. Why don't people "poop" where you are?

 

[iceworm]

... Side note. Why don't people "poop" where you are?

The answer to that was in post 1. Dry cabins have an outhouse.

...If you already have the answer from those in your area why ask? ...

I know the answer for here. Outside of the city, there are no building permits. The borough does not do any inspections, the state does not inspect one or two family dwellings. But that was not what my questions were about.

How do you think the AHJ/inspectors in your area would respond?

That is right out of post 1 (again). What I am curious about is what would happen, what is enforced, in various parts of mainland America.

You ask questions for experts to answer. For some reason you choose to dismiss them because????????? ...

Just your's. Because you have four posts full of strident, forceful sounding, "You have to define the use to the AHJ (paraphrased). So I look at post 1 (and again)

I'll define "dry cabin" as a structure with everything one would find in a normal house except: no water system, no indoor sanitation facilities, has a separate outhouse. Water for cooking/washing is usually brought in with jugs.

If that doesn't define the use there is a secret handshake or Captain Midnight code, I don't know about. Or the AHJs in your area are really obtuse. Either way, if I walked in and asked any of the AHJs around here, and told them what I was going to do, they would clearly understand that I intended for people to live there. If I asked for the applicable regulations, they would either tell me or tell me where to go look. They generally don't just tell me where to go. :roll:

From my translation of your posts, if I walked in to an AHJ in your area with my request for information, I would get a forceful, loud, "You have to define the use." This leaves me thinking: Am I glad I live in an area where the AJH, building dept officials, speak and understand colloquial American English - and don't hide behind secret codes.

You ask if you are clear. No, not to me. I don't see the connection between your posts and my questions. Look at it this way. You're explaining it to and engineer. :? You're ........ going ........ to ....... have ....... to ........ use ........ small ......... words, ......... short .......... sentences, .......and ........ type ........ slowly.

ice

 

[jxofaltrds]

If you told the AHJ that you were building a 4000 SF building and that is all you told him how would he know what to approve for plans or how to inspect the building.

Is it a home, church, warehouse, airplane hanger? You have to state its intended use before anyone can know how to proceed.

Sorry if you think that stating a fact is too forceful. How else should I state a fact? I did not use caps. :?

 

[iceworm]

Mike -
Just so you know:
I live in a area where the government is not going to take care of me or my family.

The road I live on gets plowed and repaired because all of us that live on it formed a local service district, voted in a property tax. Borough collects the money as part of the general property taxes, and gives our part back. One of us administer (with no pay) the money and hiring the equipment.

If I call the state troupers with an emergency, they will be out as quick as they can, could be an hour, might only be a half hour. There are no Borough police and I'm outside of the city limits, so no city police.

The Fire Department will show up in 15 minutes - fire truck or ambulance or both. That's because we formed a fire service district and a volunteer fire department. We have only one paid person - the chief. But we got good equipment and a good fire station.

There is no all-powerful government official shouting orders about one or two family building construction. The only government type person I ever hear of (don't ever see her) is the borough property tax assesor. I get a letter from her every five years - explaining why my taxes are going up. She also comes out to my cabin. I think the Forest Service takes her out in one of their boats - there is no road. I get a similar letter from her also every 5 years.

There were no building permits required when I built my house - except for the borough driveway permit, $5 (not mandatory). That got me an street address - which doesn't matter much, post office doesn't deliver mail to the house. The State DEC wanted $100 to register the well - not mandatory. For their fee I get put in line for the water rights. I also had to give them a sketch showing the septic was at least 100' from the well. They also came out and pulled a water sample and gave me the test results. Had there been high arsenic or some other naturally occuring poison - tough luck, up to me to deal with. I hired a septic tank/drain field installer and he had to file with the state DEC ($40, I think - not sure). Sent them a copy of the same plot plan, showing the well was 100' away.

The power is from a co-op, not private, not a exactly public utility - belongs to all of the subscribers. They gave me typical installation drawings, listing specific required material. No requirement to hire a journeyman. Told me their side of the installation had to meet the requirements listed on the typicals. They came out and inspected my main disconnect, meterbase, and the one ground rod they required - then made the connection to the pole transformer. Anything after that - they didn't care.

This is not a whine - its all okay with me. I will not willingly accept living in an area teeming with people, bad air. short on water, and the gov'ment probing into places I wouldn't do to a cow.

I've been doing this long enough I have few clues about how manland America lives. That is what my questions were about. Does mainland America do this (build dry cabins)? If so, how do they handle it?

That's all. No hidden agenda.

ice

 

[iceworm]

... Is it a home, church, warehouse, airplane hanger? You have to state its intended use before anyone can know how to proceed. ...

... I'll define "dry cabin" as a structure with everything one would find in a normal house except: no water system, no indoor sanitation facilities, has a separate outhouse. Water for cooking/washing is usually brought in with jugs. ...

Oh gracious good heavens.
Mike -
This is bordering idiocy. Sometimes you have good comments. This is not one of them. I'll not be wasting any more bandwidth on this conversation.

So, anyone else have any comments? I'm still interested in how America handles this sort of thing.

 

[jxofaltrds]

Oh gracious good heavens.
Mike -
This is bordering idiocy. Sometimes you have good comments. This is not one of them. I'll not be wasting any more bandwidth on this conversation.

So, anyone else have any comments? I'm still interested in how America handles this sort of thing.

In Ohio where building departments exist they required what I have stated before. In many areas here where no building department exists you do as you darn well please.

Now what you call "idiocy" is what I was told as recently as yesterday by the state.

I did not say that I think or my opinion is - I stated how we handle it here.

It seems that no one else here (on the forum) builds what you have describe above.

I do not know why it bothers you for me to tell you what we do here. If you do not like what I say - just ignor it as many others do. No need to raise your BP!

 

[iceworm]

Right now as it stands the cabin would not have a listing under IRC and it does not qualify to be considerd under IBC. Since it is off the grid, a well could provide the water and a generator could provide the electric. Cooking could be provided in a number of ways. Depending on the actual location it may not fall under any jurisdiction other than the owner.

Gregg -
Thanks for the response. I'm looking at cabins with electric, or my question don't make any sense. See post 11 for the norm.

ice