dryer recept cover allowing water

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77401 said:
I know its wrong to judge a whole trade on one guy, but I have a file drawer full of simular reports that get faxed to weekly. I swear some of these guys have never owned a screwdriver or hammer & now are HI's.
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"Those that can, do. Those that can't, inspect."
 
hmmm....that is a bit harsh actually Larry........I CAN DO...quite fine and have been doing for 20 years.....I also do home inspections.....when needed and when contacted......

I think that is the problem with the industry...at some point a HI has rubbed an electrician the wrong way....made a recommendation or two and it was taken the wrong way and well......started this whole issue.

HI's are not and never WANTED to be electricians.....they dont claim to be....but they can be the eyes for the electrician who will probably only EVER get called when their is a real problem....so they add a value to the market.

Anyway...I don't have a problem with good HI's...I know alot of them... Also I get alot of calls from HI's in the field asking questions and I gladly give them advice to help educate them.....I don't have a problem with it honestly.

Oh...and guys...I dont get offended either when someone bashes a HI....thats why I give my time to teach them when I can.....better to educate them as you are not going to stop the growth of that industry.....might as well educate them and make them better....which now plumbers and others would join in the act.
 
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celtic said:
I cannnot agree with that.

Last year, BEFORE the class action wound down on April 20, I was contaced by a HO to swap out a panel. The panel was a FPE. The HO had NO idea of the problems associated with FPE - even though he owned the property from the day it was built. He had a small legal "advertisement" in a local paper announcing the action and that is how he found out he "might" have an issue with FPE. (I can email a copy to anyone interested)

After reading about the action, I did some reasearch (on the web). I discovered things I didn't know about FPE - and I am "supposed" to be the knowledgable one! To say "the "Consumer" knows the risks..." is assumption. While it may be true that many HO's are aware of the FPE CB issue, how many are aware of the bus issue - or the UL issue - or the class action?

I printed out that .pdf (I linked to here), and gave it to the HO, I opened up his panel to show him - and myself - what type bus it contained. I then left him to READ the information BEFORE deciding if he wanted the costly job done or not. He decided NOT to "simply ignore the risks"...as did about 40 other owners in that condo development, apparantly that pdf was ciculated throughout the development.

How does one equate the "lesser ot two evils" when either one could result in the loss of life, limb, or property?

It is pertinent to note - NOT all FPE panels, CB's, bus, and equipment falls into the catergory of "evil". To assume every FPE panel in existance in homes today is "evil", is just as erroneous as assuming "something is better than nothing".

In my own home, I have a FPE 50A main...and it works just fine - as I found out last week when it was 100? +/- outside.
...but have no fear, the 50A FPE will be history very shortly.
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I think the fact you LEFT it to them to choose if they want to take on the cost as giving them a choice....I am not a blanket statement electrician that says every FPE panel should be replaced......not a statement I am ready to make but it most certainly will be a recommendation and option they are given.

You can't make their mind up for them......their is a difference in a Recall and a Class Action Suit......Recalls are paid for by the manufacturer in most cases....not in this case.
 
radiopet said:
I think the fact you LEFT it to them to choose if they want to take on the cost as giving them a choice....I am not a blanket statement electrician that says every FPE panel should be replaced......not a statement I am ready to make but it most certainly will be a recommendation and option they are given.
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I gave the HO my opinion...why else would I have given them the article?
I could have just as easily NOT given them the article and simply said "You gotta change that" - none would be the wiser.

radiopet said:
You can't make their mind up for them......their is a difference in a Recall and a Class Action Suit......Recalls are paid for by the manufacturer in most cases....not in this case.
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There was NO recall.
In THIS case(Yacout Class Action), it was paid for by (a subsequent owner of) the FPE brand....at up to 3x the amount billed by the EC's.
Yacout vs FPE Legal Notice]
 
radiopet said:
hmmm....that is a bit harsh actually Larry........I CAN DO...quite fine and have been doing for 20 years.....I also do home inspections.....when needed and when contacted......
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No offense intended. It was aimed at the usual coach or teacher situations. "Those who can't do, coach (or teach)."

My experiences with HI's are what they are, and not of my choosing. The two most recent ones are calls that resulted from horrible inspections. The first was an all-out fire, and the second resulted in new parents who just bought a house and had to spend a week without any power.


The fire job was a result of no, and I mean no, grounding. The EGC in the #10 NM feeding the water heater burned, because it was the sole GEC for the house. The service had (obviously illegally) been upgraded to 200a, but only from the load lugs of the meter.

There were NO cable clamps, even on the incoming SE cable, no grounds at all, and the house had recently had a new HVAC system installed, probably all part of the same job. The house had just received a glowing (pun intended) HI report.

I did an in-depth report to the owner's insurance company and a complete service change with all-new parts. The fire department report said the incoming service was still energized even after the meter was pulled! Apparently the neutral was hot, and explains the melted EGC.


The second job was also approved in an HI report, with a special mention of the upgraded electrical system. This was definitely recently done as part of a central-HVAC installation. Missing from the report was the lack of cable clamps or anything else related to the new HVAC system.

Also missing was the mention that the line-side service cable was not up-sized. This resulted in a line-side lug melting in the 100a meter base, the POCO responding to a partial power failure, and them cutting the service drop completely.

Because the second job had never been permitted, we were able to get the POCO work done at no charge, as they do for a real upgrade, and we permitted it as if it had never been done. We had to correct everything wrong, and it cost the homeowners almost the same as a real upgrade.


I will give HI's one credit when it comes to their electrical inspections: They never seem to miss the infamous double-tapped breaker which, while legal only on so-marked breakers, results in nuisance tripping at the worst. (Yes, this last paragraph is sarcasm.)
 
lol.......well I am doing my part to help educate them Larry...lets just hope they decide to actually TAKE the classes we are offering...it is a good first step into teaching them the proper methods and so on.

It is like anything.....if you give them minimal standards they tend to take them.....just like some electricians do as well......hopefully we are raising the BAR on them......it should help go along way towards improving their reputation in the industry.
 
Radiopet.

You got at least one guy that agrees with you.

HIs can find electrical issues that would otherwise not have come to light.

It seems most ECs have a predetermined hatred for HIs and I just don't understand it.
 
Thank You...BOB I was wondering when you would come and save my floundering...lol Lord knows many are not perfect but if not for them in many cases you are right....things would NOT come to light until it is too late...
 
iwire said:
Radiopet.

You got at least one guy that agrees with you.

HIs can find electrical issues that would otherwise not have come to light.

It seems most ECs have a predetermined hatred for HIs and I just don't understand it.
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Bob
Maybe I can explain it to ya, why we have a predetermined hatred for HIs. Actually it's a love hate relationship
1) Ego...LOL
2) Our good customers call us all frantic after getting a HI's report. Many times they are Deal Breaking remarks for a Realestate sale.
3) we try to calm the HO down & cite most of the items written are old code issues, & they are not required to make any repairs or improvements.
4) then the real reason(we hate HI's) is when they often write up something completely wrong, & we, the EC tells them its erroroneous, the HO or realtor will often side with the HI's, thinking they know more about code & safety than us, because they are "INSPECTORS"

Personally I have stopped discussing or arguing with the repair list & now just say the HI is right & everything needs repairing, take the $$, & not get involved. It does me no good to fight the HI.

One report for example I got today, was citing a white wire on a 240 volt breaker. Why would anyone buy a house with a white wire on a 240 volt breaker???

One I got last month had cited a white wire on the ground bar. So I went to make the repair. Guess what? the only panel for the whole house, GE 150a load center with the 2 bars, one on the left & one on the right with the bond bar attachment connecting the two. OK, the installer put all the grounds on the left & all the whites on the right but it was all still bonded. The inspector wrote up "one white wire on the ground side"
Easy money for me, I never said a thing except, thanks for the $150 for the repair.

So we EC's hate them for doing this to our customers but love them for paying our bills!

Sometimes, I think they recruit HI's from the greeters at Walmart
 
77401 said:
Sometimes, I think they recruit HI's from the greeters at Walmart
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lol...now that statement will go along way in getting along with HI's...lol...

I think until someone walks in BOTH shoes they just dont know....I have walked in BOTH for many years.....hoping that the new training we are giving them will help educate more of them...but again thats THIER choice to attend and learn.

Also.....isolated experiences taint the trades....I know some electricians that I taught at the local college here that are awful...but they carry a license and are out doing work........so it is the same in every industry more or less...

Not all HI's are created equal..........just like not everyone is Mike Holt...
 
Radio
I appaud you for trying to make a difference & caring for the HI side of the fence.
but you said..."hoping that the new training we are giving them will help educate more of them...but again thats THIER choice to attend and learn."

Does this mean CE is not required for HI's?
Do your favorite students become Radiopets pet?(Humor attempt)

I wish I had no CE to attend.
 
iwire said:
It seems most ECs have a predetermined hatred for HIs and I just don't understand it.
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It's a fairly universal phenomenon, and really doesn't have as much to do with particular cases as it does with particular roles. In other words, stereotyping. :) Specialists in just about any field hold a certain amount of contempt for those they perceive as dabbling in their field without having done the time and earned the credentials. It's almost as bad in academia and office environments as it is in the building/mechanical trades, but not quite. ;)

I only know one home inspector personally. He's licensed, and had a long career as a well-respected local remodeler/contractor before becoming an inspector. I have many of his former clients on my client list now, and had seen his work and heard many good stories about him before I finally met and had a good chat with him. I even got called to do some repairs based on one of his reports, and everything in the report was nuts-on accurate.

I'm sure there are others who have entered the HI field like he did, as a way to put a soft ending to a hard career in the trades. And some of those people know quite a lot about building mechanicals. But we all know there are bad ones, too, and we're going to aim our jokes at the stereotype every chance we get. :)
 
I had a call yesturday from some home owners getting ready to close. They decided it was about time to have the 2 recepts fixed in the Master bath as a courtesy for the new owners.

The house was wired about mid '80s and had a GFCI in the garage that fed the main bath, an outside outlet, and the master bath. All backstabbed. I found a burned neutral in the outside outlet.

"No working outlets in the bath & outside would be a write up by a HI" I said.

"We already had our inspection, he only wrote up our screen door"
 
Minuteman said:
Not a vey positive attitude Bob. :rolleyes:
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Oh but it is.

I am positive they where bad electricians.

Seriously do you deny that there are electricians with licenses that are hacks and downright dangerous?

Bad home inspectors do damage with reports.

Bad electricians do damage with tools and conductors.

I am fairly certain no HI reports have been a direct cause of death.

Can't say the same for electricians work.
 
I hear that 90% of the doctors out there practicing medicine don't graduate in the top 10% of the class. I think that the medical profession is probably the best regulated of all professions and still a few hacks get by the screening process ( those that have a few drinks or get high before doing heart surgery). To understand home inpectors better go to the NACHI web site and take the Free home inpectors test ( no limmit on the number of times you take the test, I passed easily the firt time). You to can be a certified home inspector if you have a credit card. There are good home inspectors out there but it's up to the home buyer to find them. How is a homeowner to judge the qualifications of an inspector when NACHI is handing out certifications? I do agree that there are hack electricians out there but think how many more there would be if you could get certified on-line using the honor system ( you could have someone else take the test ). Many states now require that home inspectors be licensed but in my state you can still just have business cards printed. This is why there are low opinions of some home inspectors. I have met some that just completed a six week training course with no construction background.
 
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