Drywall screws to mount electrical panels

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dnem

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I'm looking to resolve the question of listing restrictions or drywall screws.

Does anyone have access to
ASTM C 954 for Type S-12 for steel stud drywall screw applications
or
ASTM C 1002 for Types G, W, + S for wood stud drywall screw applications ?

Does anyone have access to the UL listing info for drywall screws ?

I saw listing restrictions from years ago but have been told that the restrictions have been either lifted or changed. . Any input is appreciated.

Also, the fact that 110.3(B) listing restrictions are sometimes placed on building material was an issue that was raised on another thread that I wanted to address in another post on this thread.

David
 
This discussion began on another thread
http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=87011

iwire said:
David, for lack of a better way of putting it.....this is nuts.

There is no NEC prohibition against using drywall screws to mount equipment, there is no NEC requirement that the mounting hardware be listed for the purpose.

I think you are out in left field.
dnem said:
Yes, ASTM C 954 for Type S-12 for steel stud drywall screw applications
ASTM C 1002 for Types G, W, + S for wood stud drywall screw applications
Click to expand...
Those are not listings or codes, they are simply standards that have voluntary compliance.
Click to expand...

You?re way off base Bob !

?There is no NEC prohibition against using drywall screws to mount equipment,?

True, but it?s not the equipment that is restricted. . You failed to read or ignored the post directly in front of yours. . In it I said, ?I don?t think you?ll find any screws listed exclusively for any particular application but you can find restrictions.? . 110.3(B) isn?t either for or against any equipment. . 110.3(B) isn?t for any particular or exclusive purpose or application. . But 110.3(B) is against (as in: prohibits) certain applications. . It?s against applications that violate the listing requirements.

The drywall screw restriction isn?t about equipment, it?s about any application that puts the screw in a position to need to withstand X amount of sheer force. . There are also different categories of sheer force. . Sheer force that is applied thru a soft or pliable material (such as wood or drywall), is not transferred directly and completely to the screw. . Sheer force that is applied thru a hard material (such as steel), is transferred directly and completely to the screw. . When the panel rested directly on the screw head, or neck of the screw head, any blunt shock force from the metal being struck is transferred directly to the screw head.

?there is no NEC requirement that the mounting hardware be listed for the purpose.?

That?s definitely not true ! . That?s exactly what 110.3(B) is saying. . There is no NEC requirement that the mounting hardware be listed for specific equipment. . There most definitely is a NEC 110.3(B) requirement that the mounting hardware be listed for the purpose or application.

Another example would be an anchor that is tested and listed as being able to hold X amount of weight. . The listing doesn?t restrict the specific type or category of equipment that can held by that anchor but the weight restriction is still valid for all equipment. . The purpose or application carries a listing restriction.

?Those are not listings or codes, they are simply standards that have voluntary compliance.?

Listing is commonly based on established standards that are backed by testing. . What other information would you use to determine the limits of a listing ? . Bob, do you think UL just guesses ? . During a tour of our local CSA testing lab, they stated that they follow UL standards for their testing. . CSA is a competitor of UL and yet the standards are still respected and used by them. . ASTM is another group of standards that was mentioned by the CSA rep.

David
 
stickboy1375 said:
Do you think a screw exist solely for mounting a panel?
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No, there is no sole existance written into the listing, only restrictions that may or may not apply to certain applications that might apply when mounting a panel
 
David I noticed you have now restricted this subject to just the mounting of 'panels'.

This is different from your original statement found here #35

dnem said:
Dennis Alwon said:
If it were listed as drywall screws only are you saying that we could not use them to fasten our boxes.
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That's what I'm saying. . Drywall screws can not be used to fasten electrical equipment.
Click to expand...

So now can I ask you a question?

Do I get a red tag if I use bugle head drywall screws to fasten a 4" square box to wood?
 
I don't think that a fastener manufacturer envisions every possible way to use a screw. The entire idea is subjective and should be judged on an individual installation basis as to whether or not the particular screw, anchor, nail or whatever is adequate. I have seen a rack of 3" conduits hung with 1/2" rod and double expansion shields fall down. On paper it looked like a well built installation. The only person who could have known that this may happen was the guy who actually installed the anchors.

Trying to make a single rule like banning sheetrock screws for mounting isn't feasible or necessary.
 
infinity said:
The entire idea is subjective and should be judged on an individual installation basis as to whether or not the particular screw, anchor, nail or whatever is adequate.
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Now that makes a tremendous amount of sense. :cool:
 
We just had Hardy Frames come in the office the other day and give us a presentation. They told us that we could use Simpson screws with their product. One of our inspectors told him that Simpson only allowed the use of Simpson Screws with their products and that he thought Hardy Frames did the same. The gentleman informed us that all three of the major compaines were buying their screws from one manufacture and since Hardy Frames wasn't in the screw business they figured as long as the screws met a certain standard they didn't care which screw you used as they all did the same thing and that was hold their product in place.

That sheet of drywall hanging over your head probably weighes every bit as much as that panel your putting up and what's the difference between a drwall screw and a pan head sheet metal or wood screw of the same size?
 
Many building codes will have a section that refers to standards on fastening devices, etc., and that language will usually state something like "stiffness of electrical component attachments shall be designed such that the load path for such a component(s) performs its intended function." I'm thinking ASTM has some standards out such as "F547-77, F1667-97 and the SAE J78-98 for steel self-drilling tapping screws is another one. :)
 
Grip Tite Fasteners-- found at Local Hardware store

Written on the box
Coarse Thread Drywall Screw
Phillips head, coarse, thread, all purpose screw
Ideal for attaching drywall to studs
Should not be used in treated lumber
Should not be used where surface rust is unacceptable


Now--- why can't I use these drywall screw. I go back to my original post in the other thread. The manufacturer is not biting its own hand by limited it's use to sheetrock.

David-- you have too much time on your hands
 
This whole thread is absurd. This goes back to what I was saying before about people getting so caught up on words that they become blind.

So if I buy a light with 2" 8-32's, but they are too long and I replace them with 1 1/2" 8-32's, did I violate a listing?

The answer this, and to the question about drywall screws are the same: WHO CARES.
 
I mostly use drywall screws for box bonding now that we can't use sheet metal screws anymore. I would never dream of mounting a panel with drywall screws, however. That's absurd. :)
 
mdshunk said:
I mostly use drywall screws for box bonding now that we can't use sheet metal screws anymore. I would never dream of mounting a panel with drywall screws, however. That's absurd. :)
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It all depends on your point of view. Let me be clear, I use hex heads number 10 screws but my panels are usually residential and mounted between the stud. I see no reason the sheetrock screws won't hold this type of panel in this situation. I cannot imagine using them to mount a surface panel to a masonry wall.

Heck some panels need lag bolts while others can be done with plastic anchors. It is all relative--- that's what Einstein said.
 
If one was worried about drywall screws shearing off, I think I would be more concerned about what was causing the shear force like earth quakes, tornadoes, hurricanes, 3ft of snow on the roof, terrorists acts, a car plowing into my house etc!
 
ryan_618 said:
So if I buy a light with 2" 8-32's, but they are too long and I replace them with 1 1/2" 8-32's, did I violate a listing?
.
Click to expand...

Yes.
:roll:

I had an inspector insist we use a ground pigtail when making up outlet boxes in kitchen cabinets and in some other "troubled" areas...granted the mud rings were not the right size, so we used add-a-depths/spark guards....
I asked "Why do we need the tails, don't the screws accomplish the grounding?"
His answer " No, the longer screws are not part of the assembly ..." blah blah blah.

He "needed" to win one, so I "let" him claim this "victory".
 
Heck, I have even used "romex staples" to fasten bracket boxes to studs, ooops, that's a different thread. :grin:

The reality is drywall screws have been and will continue to be used by us electricians to fasten boxes.(atleast by me)

Aren't those new plastic boxes that come with screws inside them using drywall screws?

Roger
 
roger said:
Aren't those new plastic boxes that come with screws inside them using drywall screws?
Roger
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I believe you are right about that. I haven't used one in a long time but I do recall that being the case.

The problem is you can't take it out and hang drywall with it.:D .
 
Dennis Alwon said:
The problem is you can't take it out and hang drywall with it.:D .
Click to expand...


Doh!!!!

I guess that would mean it's a "box screw" that looks like a "drywall screw".:D

Roger
 
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