Dual Fuel Range

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frizbeedog said:
I may be misunderstanding this, but as I read it column B doesn't apply to a single "range."

I could be wrong, but I think your calc. is wrong.

Note 4 is the only place where it addresses a single range. All other notes imply multiple appliances.....untill you look at the table. :wink:
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You are correct that col B is not for a single range. It is for a single oven. A dual fuel range is basically a single oven-- that is one of the questions I had.
 
Yes. so does my dual fuel qualify as a range or a single oven?
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Gezz I think you found a hole in the Code.

I kinda side with Marc on this one, that both bake and broil will not be on the same time.

Keep 210.19 in mind and read down through 210.19(3) & Exceptions.
You can skip 210.19(2) well all know MOBC's. :)

210.19(3) Is your real Key. I had another thought but backed off that after re-reading 210.19 ...

It doesn't say to add or use the highest two together like you can use the highest of either a A/c verses heater calc. either (Odd comparision I know). But 210.19(3) just says it differently.
 
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Dennis Alwon said:
You are correct that col B is not for a single range. It is for a single oven. A dual fuel range is basically a single oven-- that is one of the questions I had.
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Then, if it's an oven, based on note 4, it's nameplate.

....still doesn't answer the labeling question.

Edit to add....I don't think you can take 80% based on the wording in note 4. As again, that is the only note refering to using the table for the branch circuit.
 
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cadpoint said:
Gezz I think you found a hole in the Code.
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well, maybe but probably not.

210.19(3) Is your real Key. I had another thought but backed off that after re-reading 210.19 ...
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I don't see how 210.19(3) plays into this. This unit is not rated 8 3/4 kw or more. It is 6.8 KW
 
Dennis Alwon said:
well, maybe but probably not.


I don't see how 210.19(3) plays into this. This unit is not rated 8 3/4 kw or more. It is 6.8 KW
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And of the sentence before that, is of what I speak. Stop and re-read it again...
 
Dennis Alwon said:
Scenario-- a dual fuel range-- cooktop is gas, oven is electric.

Broiler element is 3240 watts
Baking Element is 2000 watts
Convection is 1600 watts

Nameplate says 24 amps and if I add the wattage up I get 6840 watts. If I use col.B I take 80% and get 5472. If I divide by 230 I get 24 amps. If I divide by 240 I get 23 amps.

Now-- the instruction state "When a 4 wire or 3 wire single phase 120/240 volt, 60 HZ, ac only electrical supply is available, a 50 amp maximum circuit protection is required. When a 4 wire or 3 wire single phase 120/208 volt 60 HZ, ac only electrical supply is available, a 40 amp maximum circuit protection is required.



Secondly--So what does this mean? Do I need a 50 amp circuit? Can I run #10 and fuse at 30 amps? It says 50 amp max. I assume that means I can use 30 amp or 40 amps as long as my wire is sized appropriately.

Any help or thoughts
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Any chance the stated wattages were @ 208V?
If so then it might make more sense. 32A @ 208V and 36 amps @240V?
For a worst case maximum.

Not sure why they nameplate would say 24A then though, maybe this is an expected average current.
 
Well, if you have a nameplate, or cut sheet that calls out a larger or smaller than normal breaker...go with that. There's usually a reason a company's highly paid, highly trained engineers specify things like that.

From your calcs, you're assuming all three elements will be on continuously at the same time, and that usually doesn't happen. Self cleaning electric ovens typically go to 900 degrees F, and stay there for about three hours, so it's possible they only use two elements. I can't tell you which two.:D

Good luck!
 
Dennis Alwon said:
Scenario-- a dual fuel range-- cooktop is gas, oven is electric.

Broiler element is 3240 watts
Baking Element is 2000 watts
Convection is 1600 watts

Nameplate says 24 amps and if I add the wattage up I get 6840 watts. If I use col.B I take 80% and get 5472. If I divide by 230 I get 24 amps. If I divide by 240 I get 23 amps.

Now-- the instruction state "When a 4 wire or 3 wire single phase 120/240 volt, 60 HZ, ac only electrical supply is available, a 50 amp maximum circuit protection is required. When a 4 wire or 3 wire single phase 120/208 volt 60 HZ, ac only electrical supply is available, a 40 amp maximum circuit protection is required.

Firstly, is this a range as stated in note 4? It is not all electric so.....????
or do I calculate this as a wall oven using note 4 which means the nameplate?


Secondly--So what does this mean? Do I need a 50 amp circuit? Can I run #10 and fuse at 30 amps? It says 50 amp max. I assume that means I can use 30 amp or 40 amps as long as my wire is sized appropriately.

Any help or thoughts
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This is a resistive load, so the higher voltage would produce a higher current. I think you need to take the 5472 watts and the rated voltage with some math to come up with the resistance then you can get the amperage at different voltages.

IE: Let's assume it is a 240-volt rated unit.

5472(watts)/240(volts) = 22.8(amps)

240(volts)/22.8(amps) = 10.53(ohms)

230(volts)/10.53(ohms) = 21.84(amps)

21.84(amps)*230(volts) = 5023(watts)
 
My main point was the nameplate saying 24 amps and the instructions saying a maximum 50 amps. It doesn't compute for me.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
Scenario-- a dual fuel range-- cooktop is gas, oven is electric.

Broiler element is 3240 watts
Baking Element is 2000 watts
Convection is 1600 watts

Nameplate says 24 amps and if I add the wattage up I get 6840 watts. If I use col.B I take 80% and get 5472. If I divide by 230 I get 24 amps. If I divide by 240 I get 23 amps.

Now-- the instruction state "When a 4 wire or 3 wire single phase 120/240 volt, 60 HZ, ac only electrical supply is available, a 50 amp maximum circuit protection is required. When a 4 wire or 3 wire single phase 120/208 volt 60 HZ, ac only electrical supply is available, a 40 amp maximum circuit protection is required.

Firstly, is this a range as stated in note 4? It is not all electric so.....????
or do I calculate this as a wall oven using note 4 which means the nameplate?


Secondly--So what does this mean? Do I need a 50 amp circuit? Can I run #10 and fuse at 30 amps? It says 50 amp max. I assume that means I can use 30 amp or 40 amps as long as my wire is sized appropriately.

Any help or thoughts
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Are you sure that you can use the bake and broil element at the same time? why would you need to bake and broil? Most ovens have two seperate buttons for bake and broil. And you said that it was a dual fuel. Most duel fuel ovens are 30 amps. Is this a super high deluxe model from Europe?
Oops sorry I didnt read other peoples post!....
But I was a chef for a long time and for the life of me I cant think of a situation you would want to bake and broil. They are both two specific cooking techniques for different results.
 
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tonyou812 said:
Are you sure that you can use the bake and broil element at the same time? why would you need to bake and broil? Most ovens have two seperate buttons for bake and broil. And you said that it was a dual fuel. Most duel fuel ovens are 30 amps. Is this a super high deluxe model from Europe?
Oops sorry I didnt read other peoples post!....
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Self cleaning ovens may use bake and broil but again that may not be pertinent. They are still calling for a 50 amp max on a circuit that only needs 30 at best.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
Self cleaning ovens may use bake and broil but again that may not be pertinent. They are still calling for a 50 amp max on a circuit that only needs 30 at best.
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I really dont think so but mabe for self cleaning you have a point. When I clean my oven at home it gets really hot and its on for a few hours but mine is all gas. I just cant see 50 amps for just an oven with no burners on top. I personally dont buy it and next time I come across an oven like the one you are describing I will set it to clean and check the amperage at the panel.
 
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tonyou812 said:
Are you sure that you can use the bake and broil element at the same time? why would you need to bake and broil? Most ovens have two seperate buttons for bake and broil.
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Self-cleaning ovens use both elements to super-heat the oven, and many ovens have a pre-heat setting that also uses both elements.
 
LarryFine said:
Self-cleaning ovens use both elements to super-heat the oven, and many ovens have a pre-heat setting that also uses both elements.
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No kidding....? I still want to put a meter on it. I cant imagine pre heating for more than a few min till the walls warm up. So if that is the case then why are most electric oven/ranges only 50 amps even if they have self cleaning too?
 
tonyou812 said:
No kidding....? I still want to put a meter on it. I cant imagine pre heating for more than a few min till the walls warm up. So if that is the case then why are most electric oven/ranges only 50 amps even if they have self cleaning too?
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Because the individual elements don't use 25a each; they're more like around half of that.

I bet you won't trip your range breaker even if you turn on the oven and all four burners.
 
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