Due to the Economy

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Pierre C Belarge

Pierre C Belarge

Senior Member
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Westchester County, New York
I just posted to a thread, where the OP is an out of work apprentice. It would seem his knowledge is somewhat limited.

I am sure we are going to see more posts here in the near future of similar content.

I helped the OP, as I understand the nature of his situation.

Out of work electricians are growing in numbers by the day, if we do not help actual electricians on this site, then they are going to attempt the work regardless, as the income situation out there is becoming dire for some. I completely sympathize with these guys, and my heart goes out to them.

I know that the Moderators are going to keep a close eye on this thread, and I also understand it may become hard for them to allow it to keep going.
I just had to say how I felt, I see this everyday at work and it I want to help in any little way I can. I am sure everyone on this site feels the same way.
 
Perhaps we will see more posts of this nature, however, not to be insensitive, but how do you know his situation. We have no idea why he is unemployed. Regardless are you proposing accepting non licensed individuals doing electrical work on their own, esp. when they may have no clue?
 
I am very strict in following the codes/rules of our area.

I also am sensitive to the situation that many electricians are finding themselves in due to the economy.
I myself was in 2 economic downturns prior to the one we are in currently.
I would be a hypocrite to say that as an apprentice I did not do sidework. I could have benefited tremendously from a site like this if it existed that long ago.

Although I am sympathetic towards these guys during a strong economic downturn, I understand some will not be.
 
Pieree I understand where you are coming from but you have to think about what sidework especially in this economy does to our trade. every sidejob done by a nonec is another job lost to an ec. Is it better to help one guy out or 5 guys because the ec got the job and could send a crew to it. What happens if that kid had pulled a 10-3 to the oven and it overheated. Were not doing plumbing or ac work what we do if done wrong can catch on fire. Did I use to do sidework yes but when stuff got slow I stopped I cant afford to get caught working on the side penalties are way too steep plus if I let the job go maybe it keeps an ec working for another week
 
Pierre C Belarge said:
I am very strict in following the codes/rules of our area.

I also am sensitive to the situation that many electricians are finding themselves in due to the economy.
I myself was in 2 economic downturns prior to the one we are in currently.
I would be a hypocrite to say that as an apprentice I did not do sidework. I could have benefited tremendously from a site like this if it existed that long ago.

Although I am sympathetic towards these guys during a strong economic downturn, I understand some will not be.
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Yes we all know that people do side work but should we be helping someone who is unqualified to do the job and maybe doing so illegally? Most jurisdictions had competency and permit requirements to perform electrical work. Helping someone who's in over their head just because the economy is bad is the wrong thing to do especially in a situation where people may be sleeping in the very house the untrained person has worked.
 
Quite a few of the electricians in my area are plowing snow, or drawing unemployment benefits, or working out of trade awaiting a clearing in the economic forecast. NYS government has suspended many of the otherwise active boards and committees until further notice. I notice gasoline prices on the rise again.
Perseverance is the key to anyone desperately trying to hang onto a freshly started trade such as an electrician just startring out in an economically disadvantaged area. Good luck. :)
Untrained people should not be in charge of electrical projects, though.
 
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Pierre,

I have empathy, but no sympathy...

Legal contractors on this site have made the conscious decision to follow the laws required to practice electrical contracting.

Following these laws and requirements cause the legal contractor to incur costs that a sidejobber does not.

To willfully create a situation (and this is not about this one case, but rather the premise overall) where an unemployed side jobber takes away work from a legal contractor, then we create a vicious circle...

Now the legal contractor has 2 options - compete with the side jobber or don't compete...

if they compete, they will have that much more trouble charging the price required to hire employees and pay the incurred costs associated...thereby causing more unemployed electricians.

if they don't compete, they run the risk of closing their doors, thereby causing more unemployed electricians AND electrical contractors...

it's a lose-lose situation in the grand scheme...in the myopic short sighted view of the world, it's a win-win...unemployed electrician makes a few bucks and customer gets a cheap price...but long term, lose-lose...
 
I understand your point. I bet we all at 1 time or another have worked unlicensed.
I have guided Apprentices in good times. I will continue, when over their heads a 'Good' one will bring you in to insure competence and compliance.

The question is, when do you say 'No' for their safety and the safety of others.

Another bad decision I have witnessed twice already. The release of a license guy and an apprentice added. That's just a bad business move.
 
Pierre C Belarge said:
I just posted to a thread, where the OP is an out of work apprentice.

I know that the Moderators are going to keep a close eye on this thread, and I also understand it may become hard for them to allow it to keep going.
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It is a borderline call, but in the discussion Rob just started in the Moderator Forum, I have voted to have it closed. While his situation is sad, there is little difference between a DIY and an unemployed apprentice, especially when there has been no indication that the work will be inspected.

The axiom that Charlie Beck stated long ago that we still employ is, "It's not what you ask that frightens us, it's what you don't know to ask due to lack of training."

That is my reasoning for asking for closure of the thread, morality of side-work aside.
 
if I let the job go maybe it keeps an ec working for another week
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The apprentice has the same thing going for him - if I do this job, I survive another week.

Hopefully the kid is a quick learner, and is breaking down all the doors of all the contractors in town looking for a job. If they refuse to deal with him, he goes out, and does what he can (a moonlight) for money to get by.

If we leave him to stumble around without a clue, there maybe unintended consequences. We don't want to throw him to the wolves, but we do want him into the fold (out of the darkside) and going forward as soon as possible. I wish we had a forum like this when I was a pup (heck, Microsoft wasn't even thought of yet)! The more you know, the more you grow.
 
Employment Section on this Forum ?

Employment Section on this Forum ?

The OP presents a tricky problem which taken to its extreme can lead to this: I got a call from a CARPENTER acquaintance who was attempting a little "light electric" to save a HO money. I told him I really couldn't answer his question and he shouldn't be doing that kind of work; also it was obvious (and frightening) from his question that he really didn't know what he was doing, and I told him that.

But these posts made me think of something: This forum has a "Find an Expert" link and really tons of useful information. But there doesn't seem to be any kind of employment opportunity section. This must be intentional, since the site designers really seem to have thought through everything else. Still, in times like these it could be useful.
 
To keep with safety, None of us "Know" this individual or his baseline knowledge and skill level.
My previous comment was based on personal knowledge of a known individual.
This should remain in context.
George, I don't disagree with your reasoning. ( I would like to see it remain open, Providing the conversation remains civil and on topic)

-"It's not what you ask that frightens us, it's what you don't know to ask due to lack of training."-
 
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Hopefully I get this in before closure of the thread - which as I had mentioned, I understand.


This thread is a tough and controversial topic. I want to thank the posters for being civil in their responses.

I do not disagree with anything that was posted here.
 
emahler said:
it's a lose-lose situation in the grand scheme...in the myopic short sighted view of the world, it's a win-win...unemployed electrician makes a few bucks and customer gets a cheap price...but long term, lose-lose...
Click to expand...

What is the solution to this without pricing yourself out of the market, but also being able to stay in business? I think this is a question many EC's are asking lately as they circle the drain. And it's not just sidejobbers either..more than a few EC's are running on the same pricing strategies as sidejobbers.
 
Peter
I agree. As has been stated here and is not difficult to understand, times are tough and heading towards tougher.

I am aware that there are many small ECs not filing the small work. This is as inevitable as the economic cycles we have witnessed in construction since before I was involved in construction.
 
billdozier said:
Pieree I understand where you are coming from but you have to think about what sidework especially in this economy does to our trade. every sidejob done by a nonec is another job lost to an ec. Is it better to help one guy out or 5 guys because the ec got the job and could send a crew to it. What happens if that kid had pulled a 10-3 to the oven and it overheated. Were not doing plumbing or ac work what we do if done wrong can catch on fire. Did I use to do sidework yes but when stuff got slow I stopped I cant afford to get caught working on the side penalties are way too steep plus if I let the job go maybe it keeps an ec working for another week
Click to expand...

If not for this site the 10-3 would probably already be pulled in. You know hes gonna do the work anyway lucky he was smart enough to ask questions on this forum.
 
peter d said:
What is the solution to this without pricing yourself out of the market, but also being able to stay in business? I think this is a question many EC's are asking lately as they circle the drain. And it's not just sidejobbers either..more than a few EC's are running on the same pricing strategies as sidejobbers.
Click to expand...

more out of work electricians as small EC's let 1 or 2 guys go and go back into the field themselves...
 
The key is to not say your doing sidework when you make a post about it : )

People doing these rinky dink jobs are not stealing a contractors bread and butter. For the most part these people are unwilling or unable to pay the price tag associated with that so they'll find someone who will do it for less. Bottom line is they aren't going to look in the yellow pages and call a contractor. I think that posts about sidework should be closed. The posters need to be sharp enough to understand that this site is supposed to be for those doing legitament work in the trade and post accordingly.
 
One way the economy affected me was I had to do the "master eletrician Trade specialist" at the Home Depot part time. I still have my full time electricial job but all overtime has been cut, and no work on the books coming up. So with the Ot gone, and economy sinking I thought I give the home depot a shot just in case. So far It not what it's cut out to be, hopefully things get back booming
 
garrisonm1 said:
One way the economy affected me was I had to do the "master eletrician Trade specialist" at the Home Depot part time. I still have my full time electricial job but all overtime has been cut, and no work on the books coming up. So with the Ot gone, and economy sinking I thought I give the home depot a shot just in case. So far It not what it's cut out to be, hopefully things get back booming
Click to expand...

So the only way you can make ends meet is by working overtime? Sounds like either you aren't being paid enough to begin with, or your lifestyle exceeds your income level.
 
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