duplex outlet grounding

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wlechner

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I would like to be able to explain why one cannot connect the neutral and ground on a duplex outlet when the existing wiring is 2 wire, such as found in many older homes. It is against code, but neutral and ground tie together at the panel. what are the consequences of installing a grounded outlet and tying the neutral and ground together?
 
Because, it puts the frame of the tool, appliance, or what have you in parallel with the neutral, therefor, even with out a fault in the tool, appliance, or what have you, simply by touching another object (water faucet for example) that is common to the grounded conductor (through bonding) you have put the user in a parallel path with the grounded conductor. IOW's, it can possibly shock or kill the user.

May I ask what your occupation was before you retired.

Roger
 
I had an exchange with the OP before approving the post, he is a retired safety engineer whose opinion is sought on various electrical and safety issues. (Sorry for not leaving a note! :D )
 
The reasoning is simple

The reasoning is simple

The ground is a safety measure to prevent electrocution and is designed to carry fault current when contacted . The neutral is designed to carry the load current back to the source on a regular basis. every ampere that goes out must come back not to confuse the op with 3 phase and center tapped transforners . if 10 amps go out on the hot 10 amps come back on the white. The neutral safely carrys current the ground is only there to provide voltage reference and carry fault current. the neutral carrys load current the ground does not this is why they must be separated. It is a little more complicated than this but to answer your curriosity /question this is what I think you do not understand on the topic. current carrying normaal opperating conditions/current carrying abnormal opperating conditions.
 
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In my opinion one of the largest dangers of using the grounded conductor as the grounding means for branch circuits is electrocution.

If you use the grounded conductor as the grounding means and at some point the grounded conductor opens between the load and the panel the metal frames of any appliance will be live as they will become in series with the ungrounded conductor.

It is much easier to draw than explain.
 
I think I submitted this proposal in, but I'd have to look.

At any rate, the discussion surrounding the proposal was a pretty good one (not actually looking at it all the way through.) :)

Basically, I was proposing to allow just what the original poster is asking about, and got some good replies.
 
georgestolz said:
Celtic, I'm not sure of what you're talking about. Is it listed here?
Click to expand...
It's on this page ...http://forums.mikeholt.com/showpost.php?p=656116&postcount=37

..from Bob Ludecke .... sends you over to...http://tirebiter.net/downloads/ludecke.html ....and then to: grounding_presentation.ppt.

Once again...THIS is the link direct:grounding_presentation.ppt.

That *should* be the same presentation I send out here:
Grounding Presentation and linked back to in numerous other postings :D

(My link requires a PM from you for the email with the presentation, whereas George's link is a direct download)
 
iwire said:
In my opinion one of the largest dangers of using the grounded conductor as the grounding means for branch circuits is electrocution.

If you use the grounded conductor as the grounding means and at some point the grounded conductor opens between the load and the panel the metal frames of any appliance will be live as they will become in series with the ungrounded conductor.

It is much easier to draw than explain.
Click to expand...

Bob,

This is one issue, I know only too well. A local electrician lost his son when he was working in an attic, he grabbed a BX cable and was killed on the spot, it drives me crazy whenever I see a bootlegged neutral, it's a death trap.
 
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