DVD Player required to be NRTL listed?

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dhalleron

dhalleron

Senior Member
Location
Louisville, KY
Occupation
Master Electrician/Senior Fire Alarm Technician
I've searched Google and here and can't seem to find it. I know just about everything electrical at Best Buy has a listing and an FCC rating.

On one of my jobs I work for a distributor that sells home theater stuff. They are short on one model DVD player and want to import the same exact model from another country, but it does not have any listings on it.

Is that a problem? Where would requirements for this be documented.

I?ve found a few references to cord connected equipment and listings in the NEC but they don?t seem to answer this one.

Thanks!

Dale
 
Is it CE marked?
If so see if you can locate a "Certificate of Conformity" for that model number.
CE marking involves being certified to a lot of various standards one of which would be EMC (Electromagnetic Compatibility or Conformity).

There are a number of members here from Over Seas and maybe they can offer more detailed information.
 
dhalleron said:
I've searched Google and here and can't seem to find it. I know just about everything electrical at Best Buy has a listing and an FCC rating.

On one of my jobs I work for a distributor that sells home theater stuff. They are short on one model DVD player and want to import the same exact model from another country, but it does not have any listings on it.

Is that a problem? Where would requirements for this be documented.

I?ve found a few references to cord connected equipment and listings in the NEC but they don?t seem to answer this one.

Thanks!

Dale
Click to expand...

Being in the business I can tell you that there is a lot of equipment for sale that has not been evaluated at a NRTL.

Is it a requirement? Yes and no.

Yes, it is a requirement that the product be listed for electrical work covered by the NEC, everything you sell and/or install must be listed and/or labeled for its use and installed accordingly.

No, there is no law that requires product sold in the US to be listed. The FCC requires that products under their purview meet certain guidelines for emitting and accepting interference, but that has nothing to do with the overall safety or durability of the product.

For example, you sell or install Home Theater equipment on a permitted job. The client wants a professional looking equipment rack with a smoked plexi door and all the gadgets. The rack needs to be listed and all of the components need to be listed. The inspector has the authority to require that every component has a NRTL label and is installed correctly. If the client wants to put in a piece of equipment that has no listing then he must do that himself, there is no law that prohibits him from doing so.

As a contractor, you must decide whether the risk of a lawsuit (if the non-listed equipment goes up in flames) justifies the reward.

BTW, a CE mark is not the same as a NRTL mark. Run into that one before.
 
In the USA...

In the USA...

For a location within the USA, I would suggest looking for a product that is UL marked. CE doesn't mean diddly-squats in the US.

OBTW, an unmarked product likely doesn't meet ANY standards, can cause problems with other products, and may not be able work in an environment that it is expected to. FCC labelling at least indicates the manufacturer has stated it won't cause more electrical interference than it is supposed to, and can accept a certain level of outside electrical interference.

I have had personal pain with industrial computers that were found to be unlabelled after problems started happening.

Caution is urged, tread carefully here.
 
Yes, it is a requirement that the product be listed for electrical work covered by the NEC, everything you sell and/or install must be listed and/or labeled for its use and installed accordingly.
Click to expand...

Be careful when stating that ALL equipment cover by the NEC is required to be listed because that is NOT the case unless the code specifically requires the equipment to be listed.

Chris
 
raider1 said:
Be careful when stating that ALL equipment cover by the NEC is required to be listed because that is NOT the case unless the code specifically requires the equipment to be listed.

Chris
Click to expand...

Ok, now I'm curious and have to ask the question, what would the AHJ allow me to install that is not listed/labeled for the intended purpose?
 
Semi-related subject. Some manufacturers will not warranty equipment purchased in the US if it was intended for sale outside the US.
 
M_J_C said:
Ok, now I'm curious and have to ask the question, what would the AHJ allow me to install that is not listed/labeled for the intended purpose?
Click to expand...

EMT straps for one.

Staples used to secure NM cable for another.

Also up until the 2008 NEC luminaries were not required to be listed.

Chris
 
raider1 said:
Be careful when stating that ALL equipment cover by the NEC is required to be listed because that is NOT the case unless the code specifically requires the equipment to be listed.

Chris
Click to expand...

I'll concede, I broke my own rules (1) to never say never, and (2) never say always. (Didn't I just break rule #1 again?):)

raider1 said:
EMT straps for one.

Staples used to secure NM cable for another.

Also up until the 2008 NEC luminaries were not required to be listed.

Chris
Click to expand...

Funny that you should mention staples for NM cable and straps for EMT.

334.30 states that staples, (etc) should be designed and installed so as to not damage the cable. I've been asked to show the AHJ the box that the staples came in to verify that, while a listing is not required, they were in fact sold as NM staples, proving to the AHJ that they were designed for such application.

Strapping EMT has been even tougher at times. When I was much younger we were taught to use bent over 16 penny nails to secure the EMT to a wood member. Now we get 358.6 thrown at us. One would think that a strap would not be included as an "associated fitting", until you're told to read the article 100 definition of a "fitting". An accessory to a wiring system that performs a mechanical function. Try and tell the AHJ that a strap is not performing a mechanical function.

I've never had an AHJ make the referenece between these two articles until recently. I just checked and the same requirements are in my 2002 book, don't have an earlier one handy.

Can't argue with them (successfully), so sometimes its easier to do what is requested.

On the bright side, It's my first "multiquote" post!

Article #'s referenced are the same for 2005 & 2008 NEC
 
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Aside from the AHJ issues, a friend who is an insurance adjuster has the best take on this subject, pried out of him over a few beers.

"When I go into a fire scene to evaluate cause, my job is to find someone to blame so MY company can get out of paying or at least share the cost. If I find that the cause was some sort of unlisted device, my day is done... the person responsible for installing it gets the full blame. If that person is the homeowner / policy holder, we stop payment on any checks already issued."
 
Jraef said:
Aside from the AHJ issues, a friend who is an insurance adjuster has the best take on this subject, pried out of him over a few beers.

"When I go into a fire scene to evaluate cause, my job is to find someone to blame so MY company can get out of paying or at least share the cost. If I find that the cause was some sort of unlisted device, my day is done... the person responsible for installing it gets the full blame. If that person is the homeowner / policy holder, we stop payment on any checks already issued."
Click to expand...

I wonder if the policy actually states that, and if so, if the HO was made aware of this at the time of the sale of the policy.
 
Add to previous post:

Oh, define unlisted. Also, I would like to actually hear of an insurance company getting out of payment because they determined an 'unlisted' device caused the damage. What if someone is experimenting with amateur radio and an accident causes a fire? The insurance company can just say they ain't paying?

What if there are bogus markings on the device making it look to be listed, when it is not?
 
From what I've read, low voltage devices do not need to be UL listed. Accordingly, wall warts are a popular option, because they just have to bundle the product with a UL listed adapter, rather than having each model of product tested.

Here's an interesting read:
http://science.niuz.biz/internal-t94565.html?

As for DVD players, I'm not sure if its just the power supply module that needs listing or the whole thing.
 
Thanks all!

Thanks all!

Lots of good thoughts to chew on.

I don't think the company will be importing the DVD players for many of the above mentioned reasons.
 
My understanding is that if the 'module' is listed to be incorporated into another product, then, you're OK (such as the internal computer supplies you mention for towers). A lamp socket designed to be built into a lamp also qualifies. But, taking an external supply (typically sealed in black plastic) and putting that inside another enclosure would not be OK, because it hasn't been tested that way. Right off, I'd say you'd have a heat dissipation problem.

Lots of companies make UL listed supplies for internal use. Check the Mouser, Digikey, Allied catalogs...

PS: Don't forget about RoHS-compliance, too!
 
I think my previous post ended up in the wrong thread? DOH!

Anyway, the CE mark is relatively meaningless, because, all it says is that the manufacturer self-certifies that the product meets RF emissions requirements of the EU.

I think we've marked the boundary of listed equipment before? But here goes again: If it is to be used by trained personnel ONLY, or accessible to trained personnel ONLY, it does not have to be listed.

Now, if the AHJ agrees that a custom rack in a 'media room' qualifies as accessible to trained personnel, you're in business. And just as long as the homeowner agrees never to touch the equipment, just the remote control, you're home free!
 
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