Dwelling unit kitchens

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Hitschamp

Hitschamp

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Oxnard CA
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Electrician
And a dwelling unit kitchen do you need to have an AFC I breaker and GFCI receptacles installed in the countertops?
Because article 210.12 (a) Says all 120 V single phase 15 and 20 amp branch circuits supplying outlets or devices installed in dwelling unit kitchens should be AFCI protected but article 210.8 (a) (6) says in kitchens where the receptacles are installed to serve the countertop surfaces need to be GFCI protected so is it both
 
Hitschamp said:
And a dwelling unit kitchen do you need to have an AFC I breaker and GFCI receptacles installed in the countertops?
Because article 210.12 (a) Says all 120 V single phase 15 and 20 amp branch circuits supplying outlets or devices installed in dwelling unit kitchens should be AFCI protected but article 210.8 (a) (6) says in kitchens where the receptacles are installed to serve the countertop surfaces need to be GFCI protected so is it both
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Yes, depending on the code cycle your state uses, kitchens require both AFCI and GFCI. By far, the easiest way to accomplish this is to use a Dual Purpose breaker. These contain both GFCI and AFCI components.

@James L You're a stroke faster than me!
 
Hitschamp said:
So if you use a dual purpose breaker then you do not need GFCI outlets correct you could just use standard outlets?
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That is correct but I would like to add a side-bar here. While the dual function AFCI/GFCI breaker is certainly the way to go to be compliant with the latest Code, the HO is now forced to go to the breaker panel anytime the breaker trips due to nuisance tripping. (Before anyone makes a comment let's all admit that there is more of a chance that a nuisance trip will occur with the advent of AFCI technology than with GFCI.) Before this requirement you could use a GFCI receptacle to serve the countertop and if it tripped (whether legit or not) you could reset it right there locally. Imagine a housewife using as blender and when the blender switch is turned off that split second spark at the switch inside the blender trips the combo breaker. Now she has to go downstairs to the breaker panel to reset (again and again and again). You can make the argument that the blender MUST BE defective and should be replaced - but we all know that's a crock. :cool:
 
goldstar said:
That is correct but I would like to add a side-bar here. While the dual function AFCI/GFCI breaker is certainly the way to go to be compliant with the latest Code, the HO is now forced to go to the breaker panel anytime the breaker trips due to nuisance tripping. (Before anyone makes a comment let's all admit that there is more of a chance that a nuisance trip will occur with the advent of AFCI technology than with GFCI.) Before this requirement you could use a GFCI receptacle to serve the countertop and if it tripped (whether legit or not) you could reset it right there locally. Imagine a housewife using as blender and when the blender switch is turned off that split second spark at the switch inside the blender trips the combo breaker. Now she has to go downstairs to the breaker panel to reset (again and again and again). You can make the argument that the blender MUST BE defective and should be replaced - but we all know that's a crock. :cool:
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There is, as always, the other side of the coin. some folks (often geriatrics) are of the mindset no power = go to the "fuse" (breaker) box.
Some don't comprehend GFC I(bless their heart) especially if the GFCI receptacles is not the one where they just lost power.
 
goldstar said:
That is correct but I would like to add a side-bar here. While the dual function AFCI/GFCI breaker is certainly the way to go to be compliant with the latest Code, the HO is now forced to go to the breaker panel anytime the breaker trips due to nuisance tripping. (Before anyone makes a comment let's all admit that there is more of a chance that a nuisance trip will occur with the advent of AFCI technology than with GFCI.) Before this requirement you could use a GFCI receptacle to serve the countertop and if it tripped (whether legit or not) you could reset it right there locally. Imagine a housewife using as blender and when the blender switch is turned off that split second spark at the switch inside the blender trips the combo breaker. Now she has to go downstairs to the breaker panel to reset (again and again and again). You can make the argument that the blender MUST BE defective and should be replaced - but we all know that's a crock. :cool:
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Or in a lot of cases to the outside to the panel. And you know how easy they are to close.
 
goldstar said:
That is correct but I would like to add a side-bar here. While the dual function AFCI/GFCI breaker is certainly the way to go to be compliant with the latest Code, the HO is now forced to go to the breaker panel anytime the breaker trips due to nuisance tripping.
Click to expand...
You seem to be arguing for one of the home run wiring methods that allows an AFCI receptacle at the first outlet to provide the requisite AFCI protection. As most nuisance tripping would be AFCI related, not GFCI related.

So unless your GFCIs are nuisance tripping, whether the GFCI functionality is at the receptacle or at the breaker is immaterial.

Cheers, Wayne
 
augie47 said:
There is, as always, the other side of the coin. some folks (often geriatrics) are of the mindset no power = go to the "fuse" (breaker) box.
Some don't comprehend GFC I(bless their heart) especially if the GFCI receptacles is not the one where they just lost power.
Click to expand...
You may be correct but you're assuming that that (geriatric) person knows how to reset a circuit breaker. I've found, over the years, that explaining how to find a tripped breaker and then how to reset it is a real chore. GFCI receptacles are also a "new fangled thing" to many geriatrics and explaining a GFCI to them is also difficult. :)
 
wwhitney said:
You seem to be arguing for one of the home run wiring methods that allows an AFCI receptacle at the first outlet to provide the requisite AFCI protection. As most nuisance tripping would be AFCI related, not GFCI related.

So unless your GFCIs are nuisance tripping, whether the GFCI functionality is at the receptacle or at the breaker is immaterial.

Cheers, Wayne
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Hi Wayne - no I was talking about a combo AFCI/GFCI breaker not an AFCI receptacle. Functionality was not in question, it was having the convenience of resetting a GFCI locally rather than going down to the breaker panel to reset.
 
goldstar said:
Hi Wayne - no I was talking about a combo AFCI/GFCI breaker not an AFCI receptacle. Functionality was not in question, it was having the convenience of resetting a GFCI locally rather than going down to the breaker panel to reset.
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And my point is that the AFCI component is the part that is likely to nuisance trip, not the GFCI component.

Cheers, Wayne
 
Once upon a time long ago, while on a service call, the customer was complaining that when a light switch in the hallway was turned on, the adjacent bathroom GFCI receptacle would trip every time. After checking several junction boxes, I found the junction box with neutrals switched. So, this has started a common theme with GFCI & AFCI with me. I now identify and match every neutral in each junction box from the main panel to the end of circuit.

Now the manufacturer's instructions suggest that.
 
mtnelect said:
Once upon a time long ago, while on a service call, the customer was complaining that when a light switch in the hallway was turned on, the adjacent bathroom GFCI receptacle would trip every time. After checking several junction boxes, I found the junction box with neutrals switched. So, this has started a common theme with GFCI & AFCI with me. I now identify and match every neutral in each junction box from the main panel to the end of circuit.

Now the manufacturer's instructions suggest that.
Click to expand...
Makes sense since a GFCI is basically little more than a small 87 relay (differential)
 
goldstar said:
That is correct but I would like to add a side-bar here. While the dual function AFCI/GFCI breaker is certainly the way to go to be compliant with the latest Code, the HO is now forced to go to the breaker panel anytime the breaker trips due to nuisance tripping. (Before anyone makes a comment let's all admit that there is more of a chance that a nuisance trip will occur with the advent of AFCI technology than with GFCI.) Before this requirement you could use a GFCI receptacle to serve the countertop and if it tripped (whether legit or not) you could reset it right there locally. Imagine a housewife using as blender and when the blender switch is turned off that split second spark at the switch inside the blender trips the combo breaker. Now she has to go downstairs to the breaker panel to reset (again and again and again). You can make the argument that the blender MUST BE defective and should be replaced - but we all know that's a crock. :cool:
Click to expand...
Then there is some inspectors that do not allow GFCI’s at the counter top because they consider moving an appliance over to reset it, “not readily accessible”.
 
hillbilly1 said:
Then there is some inspectors that do not allow GFCI’s at the counter top because they consider moving an appliance over to reset it, “not readily accessible”.
Click to expand...
That’s just stupid.
If it’s readily accessible at inspection then that’s it.
 
Hv&Lv said:
Makes sense since a GFCI is basically little more than a small 87 relay (differential)
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Is the 87 relays used by utilities to protect their transformers, like when the wind is blowing and the primary wire cross. Is this the mechanism that switches off the power for a set period, after which the power resets ?
 
mtnelect said:
Is the 87 relays used by utilities to protect their transformers, like when the wind is blowing and the primary wire cross. Is this the mechanism that switches off the power for a set period, after which the power resets ?
Click to expand...
I believe you're describing a programmable recloser, and they're usually used on branches, rarely single loads.
 
mtnelect said:
Is the 87 relays used by utilities to protect their transformers, like when the wind is blowing and the primary wire cross. Is this the mechanism that switches off the power for a set period, after which the power resets ?
Click to expand...
No, that’s 50/51
87 is differential.
What comes in must equal what goes out, net 0
Kirchoffs current law
OCRs are generally used for single phase lines, and triple singles or three phase reclosers are used at the stations.
 
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