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earth impedance

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c-h

Member
Re: earth impedance

Karl, as I don't have more information than I can put in a single message, I think my answer can stay within this thread.

Yes, that's very high although it's the average at street level. It's lower in the houses. All distribution in Stockholm is underground with the cables run under the pavements.

The report (Swedish only) can be found at
http://www.elforsk.se/publish/show_report.phtml?id=311

The abstract in my translation. My comments in []brackets.

"The magnetic field from [electric] cable networks i Stockholm has been measured one meter above ground along 104 km of pavement. The instrument used has range and accuracy as follows:

Range: 0.05 microTesla - 100 microTesla
Frequency: 30 Hz - 2 kHz (-3 dB)
Accuracy: ?10 % of presented value ? 0.05 microTesla

For the central parts of the city the average is 0.39 microTesla and 66% of the readings are above 0.2 microTesla. The magnetic field is lower in the suburban areas, with an average of 0.19 microTesla and 33,2% of the readings above 0,2 microTesla. In the majority of the streets in the central parts of the city, magnetic fields between 1.0 and 2.5 microTesla have been recorded. In some extreme cases 6-7 microTesla have been recorded.

The strenght of the the magnetic field increases and decreases constantly in jumps, usually in the magnitude of ?0,30 microTesla to ?0,60 microTesla. The duration of each jump varies randomly between two seconds and 20 seconds.

The strength of the magnetic field is not necessarily load dependent but also connected to the degree of superimposition of single phase loads. [I don't quite follow that in part Swedish]

The observations indicate that the magnetic field can attributed to net currents and that the fields therefore decrease inversly proportional to the distance to the cable."

{Edited to correct mistranslation in last phrase concerning the net currents. Mea culpa.}

[ December 07, 2003, 01:10 PM: Message edited by: c-h ]
 

charlie b

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Lockport, IL
Occupation
Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: earth impedance

All right everyone, it looks like I continue to misunderstand several previous comments. Based on a PM I received, I think I might have it now. In my defense, it?s a bit hard to talk about circuits without having the same diagram in front of all participants.

So I?ll try describing the circuit. Start at ?hot wire? of POCO?s pole-mounted transformer. Go to building?s service disconnect, through the building?s loads, and out the building?s neutral conductor to the ?cold side? of the POCO transformer. The neutral is attached to planet Earth both at the service disconnect and at the POCO pole. Therefore, there are two parallel paths for current to flow from the building back to the POCO transformer. One path is via the neutral, the other path is via the dirt (i.e., from the building?s ground rod to the POCO?s ground rod). So, yes, if you reduce the resistance of the ground rods, more of the current will pass through dirt, and less current will pass through the neutral conductor.

I guess this means that I agree with what everyone else has been saying, and I apologize for the confusion. It seems that I got caught up in one of those ?The grass is green. No you are wrong, the sky is blue? kinds of arguments.
 

al hildenbrand

Senior Member
Location
Minnesota
Occupation
Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
Re: earth impedance

So, Charlie B,

Consider, then, the pole mounted 1? wye connected transformer primary current coming out of the low side of the primary winding. The current has three ways to "look". The current looks back toward its source along the transmission line neutral (that is re-grounded periodically) and sees that impedance. The same current looks down the transformer pole to the ground ball or rod and sees that impedance into the earth + out of the earth at the source. The same current looks down the transformer secondary neutral and "sees" the impedance to earth through the premises Grounding Electrode System + out of the earth at the source.

If the premises GES includes the underground, conductive municipal water system, the impedance into earth will be, IMO, the lowest of the three paths back to the source. Therefore, more of the transformer primary current will head in through the premises service neutral/GES than in the other directions.
 

charlie b

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Lockport, IL
Occupation
Semi-Retired Electrical Engineer
Re: earth impedance

Here again, I?m not ?Charlie E. the utility guy,? and I?m not into ?pole vaulting.? :roll: So forgive a simple question: At the pole mounted transformer, are the primary and secondary neutrals bonded to each other? If they are, you still have to account for the impedance of the neutral conductor from the pole to the service disconnect. If they are not, then you also have to account for the impedance of the utility?s secondary ground rod.
 

roger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Fl
Occupation
Retired Electrician
Re: earth impedance

Charlie B, yes in most cases (at least in my experience) the Poco neutral (MGN) is common to both primary and secondary sides of the transformer.

Roger
 

karl riley

Senior Member
Re: earth impedance

Charlie B., I am glad the misunderstanding was cleared up.

Brian, in 14 years of measuring neutral currents on water pipes and grounding electrodes I have seen the same as you, that all the current on these parallel paths from service point back to the secondary of the transformer can be numerically accounted for from the loads in the building, and the neutral current they produce.

I realize that in rural regions primary neutral may indeed play a part in the stray voltage problem, since up to 50% of primary neutral current travels in the earth back towards the substation (the maximum amount is near the midpoint of the line). But in towns I have not seen it.

c-h, I do have more to say about the Stockholm measurements after I read the link. I will start a new thread on this after reading.

Karl
 

brian john

Senior Member
Location
Leesburg, VA
Re: earth impedance

Karl:

I would like to be involved in one of the marina/swimming pool stray voltage/current problems just to get a better hands on understanding of the stray voltage/current problem. The few threads posted on this site regarding this issue and were seeking advice never responded whether they resolved the issue.

There is a book on this issue "The Myth of Stray Current Voltage" (I think that's the name, recommended by bennie) the book is in my truck 100 feet and 6" of snow away. Being lazy I'll wait till morning to verify the name. If the name is vaguley familar to anyone they can correct me. My point (bit long winded to get to the point) is have you read this book).
 

karl riley

Senior Member
Re: earth impedance

Brian, yes, I have read the book. I think it is by Severs. It is about 1,000 miles away in my MA bookcase. He is a very independent maverick type utility engineer, though he shows a bias against "Bessie" in flippant remarks. He has an attitude. But he also is hands-on and likes to set up experimental situations. The main flaw in his argument as I remember (memory may be off) is his assumption of an average of 5 ohms resistance for ground rods.

Let me know what you think when you read it. There is another book by him that I have which is also interesting.

Karl
 

karl riley

Senior Member
Re: earth impedance

c-h, I guess I won't be reading the link, since I don't read Swedish. The Swedish meter's accuracy of 10% is well below acceptable ANSI standard of 5%. The meter I designed is 1% - 2% across the power frequency harmonic range. The Bell 4080 is 2% - 5%.

But it is probably giving useful info. Since this is obviously net current, does the article say whether Stockholm has a metallic water system? I would not expect this much net current just from an earth current circulation.

Karl
 

bgisborn

Member
Re: earth impedance

I've been reading your messages and it seems to me-though I'm sure everybody is aware-that we're blurring the distinction between a zero reference point and an EARTH ground. The whole electrical system will work just great if we made transformer shells out of non-conductive plastic and we used nothing but plastic enclosures and raceway-and no grounding electrodes in the earth as long as we bonded correctly to our zero reference point that we call a ground but has nothing to do with dirt. Remember those old tube radios that if you dropped in your bath would electrocute you? They had a ground-a chassis ground. Their "zero" reference point was not 0 volts to the earth. Look, the earth may have a 10, 000, 000 volt volt potential relative to the moon but could be a excellent zero reference point for us.
The earth works something like an RC circuit when an electrode delivers a lightning charge to it. The electrode can't deliver the charge-charge up the earth( a bit of physics, charge like energy is conserved)that is, in the milliseconds lightning gives it. The earth can take it but the electrode's size can't deliver it.
The ohm readings taken on electrodes to earth are usually not valid. Many components of soil have a break down resistance. If you want to see what lightning sees, MEG the soil with your handy dandy 100,000,000 volt megger. You'll get less than 25 ohms I bet. By the way, don't expect me to crank that baby.
 

roger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Fl
Occupation
Retired Electrician
Re: earth impedance

Bob,
The ohm readings taken on electrodes to earth are usually not valid. Many components of soil have a break down resistance. If you want to see what lightning sees, MEG the soil with your handy dandy 100,000,000 volt megger. You'll get less than 25 ohms I bet. By the way, don't expect me to crank that baby.
welcome to the general concensus. :D

Roger
 

c-h

Member
Re: earth impedance

Karl, sorry, my fault. I made a translation error since I couldn't come up with the term I was looking for and tried to describe it instead. I'll try to remember "net current" in the future. :) Yes - gas and water pipes are metal, at least the older ones.
 

karl riley

Senior Member
Re: earth impedance

c-h, I hope the Swedes take amp measurements on the pipes to confirm what is happening. If they are concerned by these fields, it would seem that strategically placed dielectric couplings in the current-carrying pipes would eliminate the net current and the high fields.

Karl
 

c-h

Member
Re: earth impedance

Hey, that's a clever idea. I haven't heard anyone suggest it, although it should no doubt work. Where would it be easiest to place them? Where the pipes enter the building? It should extend the life of the pipes too and save the water company some money. But I wonder what happens to the CATV and phone system?
 
G

Guest

Guest
Re: earth impedance

In my utility district many of the water meters contain a di-electric component. I spoke to them about the specifics of this, and they stated it's a luck of the draw situation: Each meter setter has his/her own way of setting up the meters. So, the di-electric cannot be relied upon until verified to exist. I recently had my water meter replaced and my current setup has the di-electric component. I recently verified this with my Ohm-meter. That creates a break at my property line. It would be interesting and possibly helpful to see the utilities put di-electric breaks periodically in the main too. The break would be somewhat defeated by super conductive soil or backfill :) (unless it was fully encased in non-conductive potting material).
 

tom baker

First Chief Moderator & NEC Expert
Staff member
Location
Bremerton, Washington
Occupation
Master Electrician
Re: earth impedance

Many utilities now use poly service pipe to the house. Also if there is a problem with a "hot meter" they will install a length of non metallic pipe. The american water works association states that one meter reader a day recieves a shock from working on a water meter.
 

karl riley

Senior Member
Re: earth impedance

c-h, you can measure the amps on pipes wherever they are exposed. You can also clamp around the grounding electrode conductor.

I don't understand what you are asking about CATV and phone lines. Please explain.

Karl
 

theodore

Member
Re: earth impedance

the notion of a pure resistance applied to earth is misleading .Earth presents an impedance not a resistance. The impedance is a function of frequency.The propagation of energy is in the form of surface waves just as you would see if you threw a stone into water.Earth act as a radiator of the energy, absorber and sometimes as a reflector depending on frequency.Low frequenies propogate through earth wheras high frequencies are reflected.

[ December 15, 2003, 08:48 PM: Message edited by: theodore ]
 

c-h

Member
Re: earth impedance

Karl,
yes you can and I know they have done that. I wrote and asked if the researchers had tested inserting dielectrics in the pipes. They had not, but agreed that it should work. However, they claimed that the main cause was not the water pipes but the distric heating pipes.

The CATV and phone lines: If there is current flowing in the ground, different buildings will be at different potential and the CATV, if grounded, will have some current flowing in it? Isolating the pipes will mean that the path between the houses gets a higher impedance. I wonder if this could would put more current in the tv cables. Or maybe my thinking isn't right?
 
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