Eaton / Cutler Hammer QBAF1020 Arc Fault Circuit Interrupter; 20 Amp, 1-Pole, Bolt-On

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iwire said:
You don't get called into question for following the codes.

You keep barking up the wrong tree trying to fault the AHJs for following the codes.
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Not in this case, the gov could in theory pick and choose as they have the authority to do so.
 
mbrooke said:
Don't government installations have the option of not following the NEC. I mean if they can legally tell civilian fire/police to leave a fire on their own property they can certainly exhibit authority over this?
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The electrical contractor has to follow the NEC which is in the spec's, the difference is the lack of inspections, things are done that would never be allowed on the outside.
 
Breaker Type Arc Fault and Combination Arc Fault

Breaker Type Arc Fault and Combination Arc Fault

These are the type being used, some in one building, some in others, both in some.
 

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fbhwt said:
The electrical contractor has to follow the NEC which is in the spec's, the difference is the lack of inspections, things are done that would never be allowed on the outside.
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But can't the specs legally say "omit AFCI requirements"?
 
mbrooke said:
But can't the specs legally say "omit AFCI requirements"?
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I thought the "spec's" were what we want, not what we want to omit?

From one of the projects electrical specification booklets: Electrical Requirements; Electrical installations shall conform to IEEE C2, NFPA 70, and requirements specified herein.

Under: Disconnecting and overcurrent protective devices; Arc-fault Circuit Interrupter (AFCI) Circuit Breakers: Comply with UL 1699; 120/240-V, single pole configuration.

Under: Quality Assurance; Regulatory Requirements: in each of the publications referred to herein, consider the advisory provisions to be mandatory, as though the word, "shall" had been substituted for "should" wherever it appears. Interpret references in these publications to the "authority having jurisdiction," or words of similar meaning, to mean the contracting officer. Equipment, materials, installation, and workmanship shall be in accordance with the mandatory and advisory provisions of NFPA 70 unless more stringent requirements are specified or indicated.
 
fbhwt said:
I thought the "spec's" were what we want, not what we want to omit?

From one of the projects electrical specification booklets: Electrical Requirements; Electrical installations shall conform to IEEE C2, NFPA 70, and requirements specified herein.

Under: Disconnecting and overcurrent protective devices; Arc-fault Circuit Interrupter (AFCI) Circuit Breakers: Comply with UL 1699; 120/240-V, single pole configuration.

Under: Quality Assurance; Regulatory Requirements: in each of the publications referred to herein, consider the advisory provisions to be mandatory, as though the word, "shall" had been substituted for "should" wherever it appears. Interpret references in these publications to the "authority having jurisdiction," or words of similar meaning, to mean the contracting officer. Equipment, materials, installation, and workmanship shall be in accordance with the mandatory and advisory provisions of NFPA 70 unless more stringent requirements are specified or indicated.
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I mean they are, but given that this is government and can be exempt from the NEC they have all the power to do so.
 
fbhwt said:
Can you give an example of the government being "exempt" from the NEC?
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All comes down to who is the AHJ, Federal government organizations may not have same standards as State and local AHJ's, and if the property is owned by Federal government may not fall under jurisdiction of a state or local AHJ either. Most federal government offices in my area are in buildings that are leased - so there is a local owner and state/local rules apply to their construction, but a military base is often federal property and is likely exempted from state and local construction rules. If there happens to be a specification pointing to NEC (with no amendments) however, then that edition of NEC applies.
 
mbrooke said:
Sure, just look at any government owned facility. Theoretically (legally) they can do what they want without any regard.
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Where I am we do maintenance on all buildings, depending on what needs to be done; if it is out of our scope we hire contractors, all new construction is handled by contractors. The contractors are to follow spec's, the base order states: any electrical work will be done in accordance with the most current NFPA 70. The problem is the lack of "qualified" people doing the work and the lack of "qualified" people inspecting the work. Question: do you think an arc-fault circuit interrupter is required in a commercial building, concrete and steel, emt and metal boxes, that has both a fire alarm system and sprinkler system installed?
 
fbhwt said:
Question: do you think an arc-fault circuit interrupter is required in a commercial building, concrete and steel, emt and metal boxes, that has both a fire alarm system and sprinkler system installed?
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Should they be required is an opinion, what is printed in the NEC is what we have to go on as far as actually being required. The only thing mentioned in 2014 NEC that might be considered beyond NEC defined dwelling units is 210.12(C) titled dormitory units. 210.12(A) is titled dwelling units, but consider a hotel unit or similar application often is in what most will call a commercial building with concrete, steel, etc. yet individual room/suites may fit the NEC definition of dwelling unit.
 
kwired said:
Should they be required is an opinion, what is printed in the NEC is what we have to go on as far as actually being required. The only thing mentioned in 2014 NEC that might be considered beyond NEC defined dwelling units is 210.12(C) titled dormitory units. 210.12(A) is titled dwelling units, but consider a hotel unit or similar application often is in what most will call a commercial building with concrete, steel, etc. yet individual room/suites may fit the NEC definition of dwelling unit.
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"but consider a hotel unit or similar application often is in what most will call a commercial building with concrete, steel, etc. yet individual room/suites may fit the NEC definition of dwelling unit". Maybe a " dwelling, multifamily"?

Eaton describes a AFCI circuit breaker as: "An arc-fault circuit interrupter is a device intended to provide protection from the effects of arc faults by recognizing characteristics unique to arcing and functioning to de-energize the circuit when an arc fault is detected". Eaton also says: "The AFCI circuit breaker is the most tested residential circuit breaker on the market".

Maybe I should have used "beneficial" instead of "required".
 
fbhwt said:
"but consider a hotel unit or similar application often is in what most will call a commercial building with concrete, steel, etc. yet individual room/suites may fit the NEC definition of dwelling unit". Maybe a " dwelling, multifamily"?

Eaton describes a AFCI circuit breaker as: "An arc-fault circuit interrupter is a device intended to provide protection from the effects of arc faults by recognizing characteristics unique to arcing and functioning to de-energize the circuit when an arc fault is detected". Eaton also says: "The AFCI circuit breaker is the most tested residential circuit breaker on the market".

Maybe I should have used "beneficial" instead of "required".
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IF they have 30/50ma GFP they are somewhat beneficial.
 
fbhwt said:
"but consider a hotel unit or similar application often is in what most will call a commercial building with concrete, steel, etc. yet individual room/suites may fit the NEC definition of dwelling unit". Maybe a " dwelling, multifamily"?

Eaton describes a AFCI circuit breaker as: "An arc-fault circuit interrupter is a device intended to provide protection from the effects of arc faults by recognizing characteristics unique to arcing and functioning to de-energize the circuit when an arc fault is detected". Eaton also says: "The AFCI circuit breaker is the most tested residential circuit breaker on the market".

Maybe I should have used "beneficial" instead of "required".
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When they say "residential circuit breaker" they are likely referring to all "miniature" breakers that are commonly used in "loadcenters". The same product lines but with a bolt on feature is likely not included in their meaning of residential. The same style breakers they are calling "residential" are pretty common in other then residential applications as well.

I have no idea what they mean by most tested. I can see it possibly meaning just general testing at their labs, since there is a lot of things out there that cause AFCI's to trip and this can be just testing for further improvements of the product. The standard inverse/time breakers of all the major manufacturers have not needed much research done for further improvement as they are relatively perfected to what we need them for at this time.
 
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