EC wanting Square D to come set up the switchgeer

[wallypiper]

I've been designing and commissioning cooling water systems for 21 years. For the 6 years before that I worked for a manufacturer's rep selling cooling towers mostly in the commercial construction market but it included a good bit of industrial and government work also. I've started hundreds of pumping systems, cooling towers, various types of air handling and demumidification equipment and coordinated, observed and assisted the startup of hundreds of chillers and air compressors. Although I am aware of the concept of megging motors as part of a predictive maintenance program no plant that I have been in does it. Many do not even have a megger. And in all those equipment startups nobody has ever asked me to meg the motor before starting it or in any way suggested that it should be done and I've never seen the EC doing it or any other field engineers on site for other types of equipment. My projects are all over the US and in Europe, South America and Asia. When I am not in the field putting our systems in operation I design systems. My specialty in the company is control systems but I am also involved in the piping design on most projects and do most of the duct design. Training is from many sources over that 25+ years in the business.

 

[weressl]

What industry do you work in weressl? My experience is nearly all plastics or can manufacturing plants. I cannot imagine the (deleted) response I would get from the EC if I told him to go meg all 100+ newly installed brand new motors on a job.

Chemical industry. The same standards are used in the oil, gas exploration and transportation and refinery. There are folks on this forum whose primary work is testing, so they may be able to speak to how widespread this practice is, but I have to say I am surprised by both your and hillbilly1's comments that Meggering is not part of commissioning in your respective fields.

 

[ATSman]

Factory Reps

Factory Reps

Personally I commission custom pump systems, cooling towers, air handlers, dehumidifiers filter systems and a wide variety of controls. I am eventually responsible for either commissioning or coordinating the commissioning of pretty much all parts of the support utilities for the plants we design.

We have never been asked to bring a factory technician in to commission switch gear. It has always been handled by the installing electrical contractor and it is part of the scope they bid on. I wasn't really asking if it was their responsibility. It most definitely is. They now say they are uncertain as to what they need to do and want us to bring in SqD. That's never happened before and I've never seen factory techs on site for switchgear unless something is wrong with it.

I was more curious as to whether factory commissioning of switchgear was common since I've never seen it.

I grew up in the electrical testing business, started doing field work for Westinghouse, later an independent testing company until I went on my own. I am a an Authorized Service Station (ASS) for GE-Zenith Controls automatic transfer switches. Whenever I show up on a job they say "here comes that GE-Zenith ASS" Seriously, they have a network of guys like myself across the country (18 in CA alone) that do startup and commissioning of ATSs. So it is very common for a factory certified person to be onsite doing commissioning on new gear or even PM or T-shooting on after market stuff.
Do I see it done on all installations? No, it really depends on how the purchasing agreement contract is written. I see it almost always a requirement with hospitals, data centers, Telco's, co-gens, manufacturing plants or anywhere downtime is a high dollar item or life safety issue.
In the case of liquidated damages where penalties would apply if a completion date is not met, it definitely shortens the repair time if problems are discovered immediately and repair parts are required. Another plus is that some manufacturers extend the warranty period if the startup is performed by a factory rep.

 

[zog]

That's remarkable.

I have never seen a newly installed motor get megged without evidence of a problem. In fact, I'm pretty comfortable stating that most equipment OEM's would request that you not meg the motors on their machine unless they request it because there's a problem.
I have hired people to test a motor for me (I don't own a megger as I don't need one often enough to justify hauling it around with me) when there is an obvious problem but a brand new motor that hasn't even been energized on site? No thanks. I will take my chances with the motor manufacturer's quality control. I know they're not perfect. In fact, I JUST authorized a customer to get a motor rewound when it shorted to ground after about 2 hours of operation. Haven't see a report so I don't the nature of the failure but since it ran for two hours on site plus a few minutes at my vendor's facility during pump testing, I'd guess a megger probably wouldn't have spotted a problem unless you got the motor good and hot first.

Any insulation resistance test, and more so on motors, is not really all that valuable on it's own. If you have a problem it is usually verisfied with a megger. Where the real value lies, as with many commisioning tests, is establishing baselaine data to use for your trend analysis as an essential part of any decent predictive maintenence program.

You seem o be missing the whole point, it has little to do with a manufatures quality control, acceptence tests are about finding installation errors (Or perhaps shipping or OEM defects to find them when it is still within waranty) and baseline test data.

I am as shocked as the rest of these guys at your lack of testing exposure.

 

[weressl]

That's remarkable.

I have never seen a newly installed motor get megged without evidence of a problem. In fact, I'm pretty comfortable stating that most equipment OEM's would request that you not meg the motors on their machine unless they request it because there's a problem.
I have hired people to test a motor for me (I don't own a megger as I don't need one often enough to justify hauling it around with me) when there is an obvious problem but a brand new motor that hasn't even been energized on site? No thanks. I will take my chances with the motor manufacturer's quality control. I know they're not perfect. In fact, I JUST authorized a customer to get a motor rewound when it shorted to ground after about 2 hours of operation. Haven't see a report so I don't the nature of the failure but since it ran for two hours on site plus a few minutes at my vendor's facility during pump testing, I'd guess a megger probably wouldn't have spotted a problem unless you got the motor good and hot first.

Quotes from Baldor OIM Manual:

"Minimum resistance of motor winding insulation is 5 Meg ohms or the calculated minimum, which ever is
greater. Minimum resistance is calculated as follows: Rm = kV + 1
where: (Rm is minimum resistance to ground in Meg−Ohms and
kV is rated nameplate voltage defined as Kilo−Volts.)
Example: For a 480VAC rated motor Rm =1.48 meg−ohms (use 5 M).
For a 4160VAC rated motor Rm = 5.16 meg−ohms."

Storage:

"3. Measure and record the resistance of the winding insulation (dielectric withstand) every 30 days of
storage.
a. If motor insulation resistance decreases below the minimum resistance, contact your Baldor
District office."

Removal from Storage:

"2. Measure and record the electrical resistance of the winding insulation resistance meter at the time of
removal from storage. The insulation resistance must not be less than 50% from the initial reading
recorded when the motor was placed into storage. A decrease in resistance indicates moisture in the
windings and necessitates electrical or mechanical drying before the motor can be placed into
service. If resistance is low, contact your Baldor District office."

Installation:

"First Time Start Up......
2. If motor has been in storage or idle for some time, check winding insulation integrity."

Operation and Maintenance:

"General Inspection Inspect the motor at regular intervals, approximately every 500 hours of operation or every 3
months, whichever occurs first. Keep the motor clean and the ventilation openings clear. The following
steps should be performed at each inspection:
........
2. Perform a dielectric with stand test periodically to ensure that the integrity of the winding insulation
has been maintained. Record the readings. Immediately investigate any significant decrease in
insulation resistance."

 

[readydave8]

OP keeps mentioning previous experience, very similiar to statement often heard: "But that's the way we've always done it."

 

[wallypiper]

Quotes from Baldor OIM Manual:


Installation:

"First Time Start Up......
2. If motor has been in storage or idle for some time, check winding insulation integrity."

Operation and Maintenance:

"General Inspection Inspect the motor at regular intervals, approximately every 500 hours of operation or every 3
months, whichever occurs first. Keep the motor clean and the ventilation openings clear. The following
steps should be performed at each inspection:
........
2. Perform a dielectric with stand test periodically to ensure that the integrity of the winding insulation
has been maintained. Record the readings. Immediately investigate any significant decrease in
insulation resistance."

I have that manual, too. And others. Let's see.

US says "If the unit appears wet and/or has been stored in a damp location, dry out thoroughly and check for adequate insulation resistance to ground before operation."

Siemens doesn't mention testing at all for original startup but recommends it every 5000 hours for maintenance.

Marathon recommends it for motors stored more than three months.

Leeson says to do it if the motor has become damp in shipment or storage.

If you and your customers think it is worthwhile to meg brand new motors before they are started on site, by all means, they can pay for it and you can do it. Not one of my customers has ever suggested it or questioned not doing it. Not one. 20+ years. Hundreds of plants. Thousands of motors. I could make some more money doing it. Maybe I should suggest it to them and see if they will spring for it. I think they might but they will want solid documented evidence of how it's going to save them more in the first two years (average payback limit for most companies considering a capital expenditure) than it costs. That's going to be hard to come up with because I think the numbers would say that not enough motors fail in the first two years to justify it.

 

[iceworm]

...If you and your customers think it is worthwhile to meg brand new motors before they are started on site, by all means, they can pay for it and you can do it. ...

Wally -
If all of your work is comodity, off-the-shelf, motors, maybe you are right. For me, it is not just motors, but the LV and MV feeders (initial hipot on MV cables), larger transformers (say 225KVA and up - doble tests as well on say 1MVA and up), switchgear, switchboards, rarely on panelboards (480 or 208). DLRO on most high current terminations. Generator load tests, full load heat runs, both winter and summer tests to insure both -40F and +80F operation. At least one customer has a -60F to +90F spec. WLA battery commissioning, initialization, load test, internal resistance, OCV, store data for maintenance comparison.

The list goes on. Small projects = less equipment = less testing. But the 480V feeders and motors will still get a megger before energizarion.

Of course the customer wants to pay for it. They want a high degree of certainty the project equipment will come up per spec when the ON-OFF is turned to the ON position.

...If you and your customers think it is worthwhile to meg brand new motors before they are started on site, by all means, they can pay for it and you can do it. Not one of my customers has ever suggested it or questioned not doing it. Not one. 20+ years. Hundreds of plants. Thousands of motors. ...

Interesting - not a single equipment or installation failure in 20+ years. That's really, really, really good - way past excellent. We have found a few miswires (parallel feeders, transformers come to mind) the occasional wet/damp motor, occasional nick in a conduit pulled feeder insulation, one 13.8/4.16 - 2.5MVA (probably the core shook loose in shipping) - and likely several others that didn't come to mind.

Then there is the issue of long lead time equipment. That stuff will get an inspection (including electrical testing) upon arrival and then may sit for a few months. Then it will get another inspection/testing during commissioning. No one wants to be surprised by a long lead item not being ready when the START button is hit.

I don't know what to tell you:
Obviously, your suppliers, shippers, and installers are just better that our's - from your description, at least two orders of magnitude better. Lucky for you - lucky for your customers. I wish we were that good.

ice

 

[weressl]

I have that manual, too. And others. Let's see.

US says "If the unit appears wet and/or has been stored in a damp location, dry out thoroughly and check for adequate insulation resistance to ground before operation."

Siemens doesn't mention testing at all for original startup but recommends it every 5000 hours for maintenance.

Marathon recommends it for motors stored more than three months.

Leeson says to do it if the motor has become damp in shipment or storage.

If you and your customers think it is worthwhile to meg brand new motors before they are started on site, by all means, they can pay for it and you can do it. Not one of my customers has ever suggested it or questioned not doing it. Not one. 20+ years. Hundreds of plants. Thousands of motors. I could make some more money doing it. Maybe I should suggest it to them and see if they will spring for it. I think they might but they will want solid documented evidence of how it's going to save them more in the first two years (average payback limit for most companies considering a capital expenditure) than it costs. That's going to be hard to come up with because I think the numbers would say that not enough motors fail in the first two years to justify it.

You sure won't be installin' a cooling tower for us.....you'd be bidding and installing it according to our standards and that includes Megger and PI records. We do own the largest one in the Western hemisphere, not counting the power plant cooling towers.

 

[wallypiper]

Interesting - not a single equipment or installation failure in 20+ years.

That's not what I said. I said nobody has ever requested that we meg a brand new motor or questioned the fact that we didn't. I had a motor failure week before last. 40 HP, ran for about 8 hours, then the winding failed and shorted ground. Annoying for the owner. Sort of expensive for us as we, and our vendor, will pick up the cost of an overnight rewind to get them back up. We'll submit a warranty claim to the manufacturer and see what they say. We have an EASA report from the shop that repaired it. Chances are the motor manufacturer will bite on the straight labor to repair it but not the overtime. But that's one motor. We put hundreds of motors in service every year. I was never on that site. It's a very simple piece of equipment that some customers routinely start without us coming to the site. I provide a detailed procedure for checking the system before putting it in operation (including checking all the power wiring) and it normally gets them up and running with no problem. But whatever was wrong with that motor, I probably would not have found it either unless there was something odd about the way it sounded or the amp draw. The equation is about the cost of the testing vs. the likelihood of a failure. When you're talking about dozens of motors on a project, the cost of testing would be pretty high and the likelihood of a failure is pretty low.

I like it when the installing EC tests his wiring but it's normally not in my scope to require it. Some do it of their own accord. Some don't. I too have seen nicks in insulation uncovered and an occasional, but very rare, incorrect connection (phases mixed on a parallel run). Mistakes happen. Humans install this stuff, both the field installed wiring and the factory installed wiring on the packages we sell. Mistakes in the control wiring are more common. It's more complex and I expect the people doing it are a little less focused because it's low voltage, low risk and lots more terminations relatively speaking.

It is extremely rare for us to see a piece of equipment sit on a site for months. I'd say on average, the equipment we sell is running within 4-6 weeks of delivery. Sometimes within days. It's planned that way. Nobody wants to be billed for equipment that's not producing a product. Put it in place, connect the pipe, connect the wire, turn it on. Start making the widgets.

And we STRIVE to use only off the shelf motors because doing so means that our clients can get a replacement quickly when they need it. We like close coupled pumps because most plants no longer have a millwright or anybody close that knows how to properly check and adjust shaft alignment. The biggest off the shelf motor for that is 60 HP and even those are somewhat rare. We will use a 75, 100, 200 hp pump if it's the only selection that makes sense but we do sometimes add another 40 or 50 HP pump to a system to avoid going to 100 hp pumps. Biggest cooling tower motor I've had anything to do with was 75 HP. Most are 20-50.

No generators or transfer switches or high voltage gear. All the high voltage is outside, done by the utility. Don't think I've ever seen anything over 480 inside a plant except for one in Ecuador. (had some 14.4 cables pointed out to me that were in a wire tray about 3' from my ass as I stood on a mezzanine working on a new piece of equipment). The biggest transformer I've seen on a project that had anything to do with our equipment was probably 4000 KVA but that's supplied, installed and wired by the utility company as new service.

You sure won't be installin' a cooling tower for us.....you'd be bidding and installing it according to our standards and that includes Megger and PI records. We do own the largest one in the Western hemisphere, not counting the power plant cooling towers.

As I guessed before, you're obviously in a very different market. The biggest cooling tower installation we have done is a couple thousand tons, most are just a few hundred. All the towers we use are factory packaged. No field erected towers. I was involved with a couple of those when I worked for the rep but not in the market I'm in now. If you can't put it on a truck, they don't want it because there's a good possibility they'll take it back out and move it somewhere else at least once during it's life span. The biggest packaged tower you can put on a truck is about 1000 tons and that's a pain - 14' wide, escorted truck, lots of detours around underpasses, permits out the yingyang.

Starting to get the idea here. We work in a market that is dominated by fast track projects utilizing plug and play solutions. They are somewhat customized but nobody wants equipment with super long lead times or tough installation requirements. Even the HP air compressor manufacturers have responded to that. Equipment that used to require a massive concrete inertia base has been gradually redesigned so that it can now be installed on any slab that can support the weight. Any time the lead time for a piece of equipment goes past 12 weeks, serious effort goes into finding an alternative. Most of the time we're looking for 6-8 weeks because that's how fast the projects go from idea to working plant. The owners are responding to THEIR customers. XYZ product maker want a new source of parts for his product. Our customer can be that source but has to create the production capability to do it. They have, typically, signed a contract with their customer that says they'll be delivering products by a certain date and it's not always very realistic but we thrive on making it happen for them. When we get near the end, a one day delay can generate a storm of conference calls and emails. We've put temporary pumping, chiller and tower capacity on lots of jobs to get them running before new equipment can realistically be delivered and commissioned. That's the environment we work in. It's not always frantic but it's never relaxed.

 

[iceworm]

... Starting to get the idea here. We work in a market that is dominated by fast track projects utilizing plug and play solutions. ...

Yes, I got the idea some time back. For me, the project might be fast track, but the solutions are never "Plug and Play".

... . Our customer can be that source but has to create the production capability to do it. They have, typically, signed a contract with their customer that says they'll be delivering products by a certain date and it's not always very realistic but we thrive on making it happen for them. .

So your customers are in the habit of contracting to deliver product before it is realisticaly possible. Now that is some really bright customers. And your customers' customers got to be dim bulbs as well. The idea that they can't tell the promise to deliver is bogus doesn't speak too highly of them.

... I said nobody has ever requested that we meg a brand new motor or questioned the fact that we didn't. ....

Then I would say you are meeting your customers needs.

... you're obviously in a very different market. ....

Oh yes, definitely.

From your previous comments, I'm thinking that your customers are bidding on short term contracts - two, three years. Someone else may get the contract for widgets after thta. So the investment has to be a quick payoff. Following that point of view, most of what you are saying makes sense.

ice

 

[wallypiper]

Yes, I got the idea some time back. For me, the project might be fast track, but the solutions are never "Plug and Play".

The systems are custom designed to meet their needs. The components - pumps, chillers, towers, compressors, electrical gear, dehumidifiers etc - lean toward standard catalog items because of lead time. Plug and play means they can call us and say "we're putting in three SBO-16s in Fort Worth" and we can do the rest from there. They don't have to give us a thick book of specs and drawings because we know what's needed to support that equipment and we know what their general requirements are. We may have to go to the plant or we may already know enough about it based on prior projects in the same facility. The design time is minimized, equipment lead time is minimized and capital investment is minimized.

So your customers are in the habit of contracting to deliver product before it is realisticaly possible. Now that is some really bright customers. And your customers' customers got to be dim bulbs as well. The idea that they can't tell the promise to deliver is bogus doesn't speak too highly of them.

Actually, most of them are very bright but they're aggressive because business is competitive. They're not the government, that's for sure. If they make a promise and don't deliver, they probably won't get another chance with that customer. We don't lie to them and they don't lie to their customers. The promise isn't bogus. It's just a challenge. Some people rise to meet challenges and some people shy away from them. When a project completion date is very difficult, everybody knows it. Not every project is a jam job but wasted time is wasted money and we're all doing what we do to make money.

Then I would say you are meeting your customers needs.

Yes, we are. We don't advertise. All of our business comes from repeat customers and our reputation in the industry we serve. And we have more business right now than we know what to do with.

From your previous comments, I'm thinking that your customers are bidding on short term contracts - two, three years. Someone else may get the contract for widgets after thta. So the investment has to be a quick payoff. Following that point of view, most of what you are saying makes sense.

ice

I expect that the initial contracts are often for pretty short times. It's not really a bid process most of the time. They seek out business and court customers with better products or a better deal. It's the nature of the business they're in. Market demands change frequently and to get new business, you have to be innovative and able to react to the changes. They expect to continue to get business from those customers but that's gravy. The initial investment has to be covered within a couple of years. But not all of our business is new product production.

We do lot's of upgrades to existing plants. It's common for plants that were designed and built 10 or 20 years ago to have outgrown their utility systems. Pipe is too small. Electrical systems are at their limit. Equipment capacity is stretched past normal design limits. Many old designs were not very energy efficient. But those projects get approved based on payback also and the payback time for most companies has to be two years or less. That's not specific to our industry. It's just a common limit at the investor/shareholder level. The capital expenditure won't get approved if the payback is longer than that, even though it may be obvious that savings would continue after a payback of 2-1/2 or 3 years. We do a lot of projects justified solely by reducing connected horsepower to lower energy costs, and we're good at it but the expenditure has to achieve that short payback or it won't get done. And you can't start getting the payback till the project is done and the savings are actually happening. So there's always pressure to get the changes completed and in operation so the benefits can start to be realized.

 

[readydave8]

So is Square D sending someone? Or the EC agreed to set breakers?

I have not (and will not) read every word of every post in this thread, sorry if question has already been answered.

 

[wallypiper]

Square D. I was on site yesterday. Gear is energized.

 

[BPoindexter]

Was the sytem a solid grounded 480Y? If so then the there is testing required by the NEC 250.95(C) that I doubt the EC would perform, have the equipment or techs trained to do. Many industrial contractors and especially government will require 3rd party testing such as a NETA testing company. Oil and Gas is a good example as the commissioning is viewed as a form QA/QC to verify installations. This means that they have an extra "set of eyes" on the installation and do not want the EC performing these checks. Plus much of this type of work requires specialized knowledge and traing that the average construction electrician does not have which is part of the reason for having NETA or NICET certified technicians.

 

[wallypiper]

I believe it is.

I'm a little surprised at the idea that a contrator doing much industrial work would not have somebody on the payroll qualified to do the necessary testing. But as discusses ad nauseum above, this is prettty light industry. Not cracking petroleum or smelting iron, just melting plastic and filling bottles.

 

[iceworm]

... I'm a little surprised at the idea that a contrator doing much industrial work would not have somebody on the payroll qualified to do the necessary testing. ...

Generally what I have seen, is it is strictly a matter of the contract. An outfit that is good at installation - setting heavy equipment, conduit, wire pulling, cabletray, termination, won't have anybody on tap, or specialized equipment (anything above a megger) for testing or commissioning - unless the contract says they will. In which case, as others have said, they may well bring in a specialized commissioning/testing outfit - and that gets added to the price. It is a matter of what the owner wants to pay for.

If the NEC required testing is not done, who's problem is that? The owner, the engineering firm that did the drawings and specs, the installer? As a general issue, I don't know the answer to that.

ice

 

[hurk27]

I believe it is.

I'm a little surprised at the idea that a contractor doing much industrial work would not have somebody on the payroll qualified to do the necessary testing. But as discusses ad nauseum above, this is pretty light industry. Not cracking petroleum or smelting iron, just melting plastic and filling bottles.

I agree that it can seem that doing your own commissioning should not be that big of a deal in lighter industries, but the type of industry or how large the job is, really doesn't matter but what does matter is the exposure the new owners and their employees will have with the electrical system if thing should go wrong down the line, once you have crossed the line of 1K amps service that has a voltage to ground above 150 volts we have to under stand why the NEC requires ground fault protection that is above the normal, and the main reason is the fact that grounding paths might not be able to withstand the available fault currents or the amount of energy of such systems and the failure of these grounding paths can get people hurt or killed.

Anytime I get a job that includes installing service above this voltage to ground and current it trips a red flag for me that extra steps are needed to ensure all rules of safety are followed, this includes that these breakers get set by people who are qualified to do so, yes it might seem like an over kill but it only takes one mishap to make a situation go real bad quick.

So it is more of a CYA then anything along with the fact I would never want to live with the knowledge that I took a short cut that caused someone to be hurt or killed, we can go through life thinking it will never happen to us, but when it does it is to late to go back and make the changes.

With arc flash becoming more of a predominant safety issue and knowing that if these breakers are not properly set by someone who can correctly determine the correct setting, can cause an arc flash explosion anywhere in the grounding system and cause harm to a person who is not even doing any electrical work but is just in the wrong place at the wrong time, I have seen the results of an older installation where a fault in a piece of equipment caused a coupling in the middle of a conduit run to vaporize spewing out molten metal a good distance, lucky there was no one in close proximity to the event and we all got to go home to our families, but the damage was an eye opener that told us if someone was close to this event they would have been seriously hurt, GFP breaker systems were ordered and installed and set by our plant engineer after this eye opener.

In this world of sue crazy people who will sue for things as simple as spilling hot coffee in their lap we need to really take a closer look at how we do things to make sure we don't become on the wrong end of a court battle, and making sure that settings like this are done by someone qualified to make them.

Liability should always be on the minds of all who do work that can get people hurt if not done correctly, never let your guard down because some day it can happen.

 

[weressl]

I believe it is.

I'm a little surprised at the idea that a contrator doing much industrial work would not have somebody on the payroll qualified to do the necessary testing. But as discusses ad nauseum above, this is prettty light industry. Not cracking petroleum or smelting iron, just melting plastic and filling bottles.

It's called economics. Unless you're really big in the class of Fluors and Bechtels, it really is NOT economical to keep a staff of specialized workers on teh payroll, because sooner or later they're going to be idle.

Same reason why large Corporations outsource large sections of Payroll, HR, etc.

 

[wallypiper]

I see your point but my company is not.large and nobody is ever idle. If you don't have work to do in your primary area you help out with something else. People that don't work that way don't get to stay here. But that's our culture. We encourage and foster it. I know it's not like that everywhere .