Educate HI or move on

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eds

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Long story short, we did a house rewire this summer, ac was present and had a mca of 18 and mop of 30. Disconnect basically on the back side of panel, #12 was installed from panel to disconnect and a 30 was installed. House has been put on the market and potential buyers brought there H.I. before closing, of course the #12 on a 30 amp is a death blow to the deal unless the #12 is upgraded to #10. My response is go pound sand and here are the code articles that support my wiring methods, further more call the city inspector and they will tell you the same thing. H.I. has sought the advice of another electrician and a electrical engineer, major violation and the house will burn down is there response, city inspector follows suit claiming the same violation. Seller ask me to change the wire and send him the bill, just to complete the sale, we did, and noted on the invoice original wire was code compliant. Call to the city inspector the following day and a short conversation on code articles and why this is allowed was all that was needed with him. Would you pursue a discussion with the H.I. on this matter and hope he understands, or just move on and spend your energy elsewhere? We may have to deal with various H.I. 2 to 3 times a year
 
eds said:
Long story short, we did a house rewire this summer, ac was present and had a mca of 18 and mop of 30. Disconnect basically on the back side of panel, #12 was installed from panel to disconnect and a 30 was installed. House has been put on the market and potential buyers brought there H.I. before closing, of course the #12 on a 30 amp is a death blow to the deal unless the #12 is upgraded to #10. My response is go pound sand and here are the code articles that support my wiring methods, further more call the city inspector and they will tell you the same thing. H.I. has sought the advice of another electrician and a electrical engineer, major violation and the house will burn down is there response, city inspector follows suit claiming the same violation. Seller ask me to change the wire and send him the bill, just to complete the sale, we did, and noted on the invoice original wire was code compliant. Call to the city inspector the following day and a short conversation on code articles and why this is allowed was all that was needed with him. Would you pursue a discussion with the H.I. on this matter and hope he understands, or just move on and spend your energy elsewhere? We may have to deal with various H.I. 2 to 3 times a year
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If you handed him the supporting code information, you can't educate a failure in comprehension. I'm more worried about the EC, engineer, and inspectors that were all clueless. They should know better.
 
gadfly56 said:
If you handed him the supporting code information, you can't educate a failure in comprehension. I'm more worried about the EC, engineer, and inspectors that were all clueless. They should know better.
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Absolutely. In my opinion, the seller should have agreed with you and refused the replacement.
 
LarryFine said:
Absolutely. In my opinion, the seller should have agreed with you and refused the replacement.
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Seller agreed but money trumps. Not an excuse for the city inspector, but they are combo inspectors. I we might be surprised at the number of electricians that don’t know this is a legal install.
 
I would bet that you wasted far more money arguing with people and posting to hear them if you did just made it number 10 in the first place. I understand it's okay but the reality is that you're going to run into this again and there's no reason to fight stupid particularly when the difference in cost is almost non-existent compared to your time
 
My daughter sold her home and ran into the same thing. AC had #10 on a 40A breaker as specified on the unit. HI called foul.
It gets worse. The HI got a quote to “fix” the problem from the contractor whose sticker was affixed to the condenser unit. He did the original install and was the HVAC contractor with an EC license. He quoted $750 to fix it!

At the end of the day, my daughter knocked 750 off the selling price to get the deal done. She felt that on a $200K transaction, 750 wasn’t worth fighting.

But it bothers me that the contractor who did the install didn’t push back and defend his own work.
 
retirede said:
My daughter sold her home and ran into the same thing. AC had #10 on a 40A breaker as specified on the unit. HI called foul.
It gets worse. The HI got a quote to “fix” the problem from the contractor whose sticker was affixed to the condenser unit. He did the original install and was the HVAC contractor with an EC license. He quoted $750 to fix it!

At the end of the day, my daughter knocked 750 off the selling price to get the deal done. She felt that on a $200K transaction, 750 wasn’t worth fighting.

But it bothers me that the contractor who did the install didn’t push back and defend his own work.
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Your daughter should have turned around and told the contractor that since he did the original install "wrong", he could fix it on his own dime, or see you in small claims court.
 
Why? He kept his mouth shut and made $750. If he argued the point all he would have got is a migraine.

Sounds smart to me.

Your daughter should have turned around and told the contractor that since he did the original install "wrong", he could fix it on his own dime, or see you in small claims court.
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Where he most certainly would have won and your daughter paid even more. Remember, judges are very good at reading legal stuff like the Code if presented to them. So your daughter avoided a migraine too.


-Hal
 
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18 months ago when my mother and aunt old their house, one of the things inspector noted with a kitchen GFCI receptacle that showed no ground with his ice cube tester, and did not trip when he push the button. The receptacle worked fine with its own push buttons, and even had the required no equipment ground sticker on it.

Because there were other violations on the house of a non electrical nature, and they were under a time crunch due to my mother's health, they hired a general contractor to fix the deficiencies to the tune of $1,100, 350 of which went to the electrician who just checked the receptacle, replaced a 15 amp breaker with a chipped handle, and put a bubble cover on an exterior receptacle.

I was livid at the cost of the repairs from the electrician, as well as fact that I could not get up with home inspector to inform him that most of the wiring in the house, including that serving the GFCI receptacle, was 2 wire cloth Romex, and that receptacle as installed was perfectly up to code and that it is not an acceptable method of checking a GFCI receptacle with an ice cube tester. The breaker handle was a fair cop, the exterior receptacle was in a carport and not subject to weather.

I did not think the other deficiencies he noted were out of place except for the electrical.

do not be afraid to argue with an electrical inspector when you believe you're in the right, and definitely don't be afraid or think it is a waste of time to argue with a home inspector if you know he is in the wrong.

If you pitch your arguments logically and calmly, and can back them up with code citations, you have not only an opportunity to teach somebody the correct ways, you also have an opportunity for business if you give him your card. I don't think either of those propositions are a waste of time.:)
 
hbiss said:
Why? He kept his mouth shut and made $750. If he argued the point all he would have got is a migraine.

Sounds smart to me.



Where he most certainly would have won and your daughter paid even more. Remember, judges are very good at reading legal stuff like the Code if presented to them. So your daughter avoided a migraine too.


-Hal
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Offering to "fix" the installation is an admission, or at least an agreement, that the original installation was incorrect. Regardless of the fact that it meets code. Remember, the HI is the one who solicited the contractor to do the fix. The contractor's agreement to do the work could also be viewed as fraud since he knew the original install was correct. The logic knife has two edges.
 
eds said:
Long story short, we did a house rewire this summer, ac was present and had a mca of 18 and mop of 30. Disconnect basically on the back side of panel, #12 was installed from panel to disconnect and a 30 was installed. House has been put on the market and potential buyers brought there H.I. before closing, of course the #12 on a 30 amp is a death blow to the deal unless the #12 is upgraded to #10. My response is go pound sand and here are the code articles that support my wiring methods, further more call the city inspector and they will tell you the same thing. H.I. has sought the advice of another electrician and a electrical engineer, major violation and the house will burn down is there response, city inspector follows suit claiming the same violation. Seller ask me to change the wire and send him the bill, just to complete the sale, we did, and noted on the invoice original wire was code compliant. Call to the city inspector the following day and a short conversation on code articles and why this is allowed was all that was needed with him. Would you pursue a discussion with the H.I. on this matter and hope he understands, or just move on and spend your energy elsewhere? We may have to deal with various H.I. 2 to 3 times a year
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I find it hard to believe that there is such a high concentration of dopes where you live. :slaphead:
 
JFletcher said:
18 months ago when my mother and aunt old their house, one of the things inspector noted with a kitchen GFCI receptacle that showed no ground with his ice cube tester, and did not trip when he push the button. The receptacle worked fine with its own push buttons, and even had the required no equipment ground sticker on it.

Because there were other violations on the house of a non electrical nature, and they were under a time crunch due to my mother's health, they hired a general contractor to fix the deficiencies to the tune of $1,100, 350 of which went to the electrician who just checked the receptacle, replaced a 15 amp breaker with a chipped handle, and put a bubble cover on an exterior receptacle.

I was livid at the cost of the repairs from the electrician, as well as fact that I could not get up with home inspector to inform him that most of the wiring in the house, including that serving the GFCI receptacle, was 2 wire cloth Romex, and that receptacle as installed was perfectly up to code and that it is not an acceptable method of checking a GFCI receptacle with an ice cube tester. The breaker handle was a fair cop, the exterior receptacle was in a carport and not subject to weather.

I did not think the other deficiencies he noted were out of place except for the electrical.

do not be afraid to argue with an electrical inspector when you believe you're in the right, and definitely don't be afraid or think it is a waste of time to argue with a home inspector if you know he is in the wrong.

If you pitch your arguments logically and calmly, and can back them up with code citations, you have not only an opportunity to teach somebody the correct ways, you also have an opportunity for business if you give him your card. I don't think either of those propositions are a waste of time.:)
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$350. Sounds like the electrician was using flat rate pricing. :)
 
JFletcher said:
350 of which went to the electrician who just checked the receptacle, replaced a 15 amp breaker with a chipped handle, and put a bubble cover on an exterior receptacle.

I was livid at the cost of the repairs from the electrician.:)
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ptonsparky said:
$350. Sounds like the electrician was using flat rate pricing. :)
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People want up-front pricing on things like this. Normally all you get to see is an emailed copy of the inspection report.

If all you see is the inspection report and have to give an up-front price then $350 is not that bad.
 
ptonsparky said:
I just tell the HO what my opinion is and let them decide if it’s worth the effort to object. Generally the HI has missed so many glaring defects I’m shaking my head in disbelief.
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I agree with this. I would take the time to photocopy the code section and highlight it for the HI, but not dwell on it. Many times HI's are inspecting for an insurance company and they have their own rules which is their right.

On a side note, I have wondered here in Florida about that rule. Our Building code requires the FPN on voltage drop to be incorporated as a code. 2% on feeders 3% on branch circuits. My read would be that this would likely negate the smaller conductors for motors in most cases. But I have never heard of it being discussed, and I am not the one who is going to bring it up to the inspectors.
 
I speculate that the inspector and EE that were asked to weigh in were not given the full details, that someone simply called and said something like “Is it allowable to use #12 on a circuit with a 30A circuit breaker?”, without having added the extenuating circumstances. Of course the best answer would have been “It depends, tell me the entire scenario...”, but people like short answers when not getting paid for providing them, so they just said “No” and hung up.
 
ptonsparky said:
I just tell the HO what my opinion is and let them decide if it’s worth the effort to object.
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Agreed, I have told the homeowner there is nothing wrong with this installation by code.
What do you want to do?
Do what they want in order to sell the house or take a chance that they will walk away if you dont?
95% of the time seller will say "just do what they want"
 
Little bit of an update, spoke with both the H.I. and the owner of inspection company, and there contention is they are not code violation inspectors, they are safety violation inspectors. So while not a code violation, it is a safety violation due to the fact that the ac unit could be changed out at a later date and then the wire could be to small ( ridiculous argument in my eyes). There training comes from a online certification program as well as having at there disposal a sounding board of professionals. I spoke to the fact that are code requirements in both the N.E.C and the I.R.C. (which we follow here) are presented as safety guides, and meeting these criteria provide a compliant installation. The fact is the wire change was a simple matter, but my biggest peeve about this, is they have the ability to hold up or prevent the sale of property based on there set of guidelines. Now do we not only have to install as per code standards, we must also anticipate there off base safety standards, ludicrous. While it cost me 5 or 6 hours of my life, i at least had entertaining conversations with H.I. and realtors which of course is priceless.
 
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