EGC attachment

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gserve

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I have a situation where a EGC will not fit on the neutral bar in the service equipment. I have tried to find a listed and same manufacturer add-on grounding lug kit to no avail.Except for the article 110 listing requirement issue is there anything wrong with installing a bolt-on lug of proper size and bolting it to the side of the panel with a nut and bolt? Code referances please. Thanks
 
Re: EGC attachment

Just make sure you sand the paint off the panel so you get a good connection.
 
Re: EGC attachment

You need one of these:


TNAIL-1D522.JPG



Here is the link for more info:


http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/searchresults.jsp?QueryString=sq+d&catindx2=Neutral+Lugs&catindx1=Load+Center&search_type=keyword
 
Re: EGC attachment

gserve
Almost all panel manufactures offer a add in grounding bar assembly to install in a panel, look for two small punched out holes that are evenly spaced and repeat on both sides and or the bottom, theses are used when mounting it. A EGC does not have to go the the neutral bar in a panel and can be a screw connection, where a GEC does have to if that is where the MJB is also located and it is a screw connection.

See 250.24(A)(4)

[ November 01, 2005, 08:30 PM: Message edited by: hurk27 ]
 
Re: EGC attachment

They're no reason why an ordinary mechanical lug couldn't be used. After all, they're listed too. It's not like you're asking if you can wrap the EGC around the wood screw that's holding the panel to the wall. I've even installed generic ILSCO ground bars in obsolete panels that were being refed as a subpanel. That's one of the reasons they make the generic ground bars. Sand the paint off, tap mounting holes, and mount the bar.
 
Re: EGC attachment

Mdshunk
What I am about to write has no bearing on you - it is a statement using your post as an example. I am not writing this because I feel this way, but I want to pass on some info ;)

"They're no reason why an ordinary mechanical lug couldn't be used. After all, they're listed too. It's not like you're asking if you can wrap the EGC around the wood screw that's holding the panel to the wall. I've even installed generic ILSCO ground bars in obsolete panels that were being refed as a subpanel. That's one of the reasons they make the generic ground bars. Sand the paint off, tap mounting holes, and mount the bar."

This is basically how we have installed these bars for years, and in general it works very well.
but...
There is an issue here to beware of. That is these forensic insurance people who come to a job when something goes wrong. (I know, a small percentage of installations, but something to be aware of)
They go into the jobsite and record ALL OF the violations/issues on the job - it is called building a case.
Then in court the (well planned and informed attorney) will start asking you questions - he is quietly assessing your knowledge and will prove beyond a doubt whether or not you actually know what you are doing. They can make a mockery of you in a very short amount of time and you will leave the stand wondering what just happened :mad: - whether or not you are good at what you do.

Manufacturers test their equipment with specified parts. Using some other parts that have not been tested as being suitable (whether you like that or not, it is a fact they use in court) will lead you into problems, if there are some other problems that bring you to court - which happens to a small percentage.

The only problem is .... will you ever be that small percentage??????

I can say that I have been on the stand many (too many) times in the last few years, so I have personally been through this. I was surprised the first couple of times at how much time I spent on the stand going over my history - when I thought I was there for other reasons.

Just something to think of when you install stuff in the future.
 
Re: EGC attachment

Because of 250.8

250.8 Connection of Grounding and Bonding Equipment.
Grounding conductors and bonding jumpers shall be connected by exothermic welding, listed pressure connectors, listed clamps, or other listed means. Connection devices or fittings that depend solely on solder shall not be used. Sheet metal screws shall not be used to connect grounding conductors to enclosures.
Click to expand...
I've been wrong before but I think it has to be listed?
 
Re: EGC attachment

It is a Midwest metered panel. I tried a lug like infinity posted and it doesnt fit. And the type of ground bar that hurk 27 describes won't work because this is a 2/O gec.
 
Re: EGC attachment

Originally posted by pierre:
The only problem is .... will you ever be that small percentage??????
Click to expand...
That's why I have almost everything I do inspected. I use inspectors as my "insurance policy".

We hear lots of rumbling about cases of EC's being brought to court, but I've never known any EC that has been brought himself. I'll continue to think it's urban legend until it happens to me.

[ November 01, 2005, 10:10 PM: Message edited by: mdshunk ]
 
Re: EGC attachment

Mdshunk

I will tell you that from my past experience, most ECs that go to court do not tell a soul - as they do not want any stigma of "I went to court".
I can tell you from experience that in my career, I have been in court 7 times. Not for work that I did, but as an expert witness, and I was recently sued for "Prejudicial inspections, causing excessive costs". My first day - thats right, day, was explaining myself as to how I could be construed as an electrical expert - with questions that had no relation to the inspection, and some that had no relation to the electrical field - such as my education. The questions come one after the other, from every angle...one needs to be very careful how one answers. I think I am a 'good guy', but I can see how the attorney can make you look bad...just to move his case along. Remember the jury does not know you, and they have this preconceived idea of electrical as it is ... an uphill battle from the beginning.
 
Re: EGC attachment

Mdshunk
Any court record of a case that has been heard in court is a matter of public record. Take the time to check it out yourself and see. It happens about every day.
 
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Yet another example of how the unAmerican legal system is destroying this country.

With legal issues like that hanging over every contractors head, is it any wonder why many avoid getting permits and inspections? Or why many people will simply hire the unqualified "hackymen" as well?

[ November 01, 2005, 11:51 PM: Message edited by: peter d ]
 
Re: EGC attachment

By the way

I won that recent case after 2 appeals on their part - the complex is now making the corrections.... oh yeah it is costing them $1.3 million. Now you know why they sued and appealed, also why they hired such an expensive attorney. ;)
 
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Pierre you are sadly correct. But...if I were to live day to day thinking about this nonsense I would go insane. It matters mot what you do, if something goes wrong you are screwed. Lawyers are products of the devil and juries are morons.

Bolt the lug on and forget about it.
 
Re: EGC attachment

I agree with Scott, if the stuff hits the fan right or wrong you may be screwed.

There is noting to prohibit bolting a lug or generic terminal strip to an enclosure. I will continue to do so.

If I can not just how would I bond a transformer?

Is the MBJ connection in a transformer less critical than an EGC connection in panel just because the panel has an accessory grounding kit available?
 
Re: EGC attachment

A simple add a lug will fit 2/0 CU and 4/0 AL.Most panels already have that provision or there is an extra one packaged in the box.I probably have 20 or 30 in a box in the back of my pick up.For when a mbr panel is used for a split.We don`t carry MLO panels they cost us to much when the buying powert of mbr that we have costs less than a MLO.Add a ground bar as needed with an add a lug and 2/0 cu or 4/0 al both fit fine,just don`t distort the ends of the cable.
 
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