EGC color

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Re: EGC color

I guess you guys have convinced me that this is allowable with the reasoning the the NEC does not actually say it is not allowed. Are we in agreement that it does not have to be green?
 
Re: EGC color

Scott,
I'll agree that the GEC is not required to be green, but whatever color that you do use cannot be used for a hot in that building.
Don
 
Re: EGC color

Mike, please show your meaning, or interpretation of your article quote.

Roger
 
Re: EGC color

250.62 says that it can be insulated.

220.7 prohibits it from being white.

The defintion of a grounding conductor applies to the grounding electrode conductor.

310.12(B) refers us to 250.119.

250.119 allows the gec to be green.

310.12(C) probits green because it would not be distinguishable from 310.12(B).
 
Re: EGC color

mike's loop of Sections seem very convincing that Grounding conductors should be green if not bare.

If some 2005 ROP is addressing 310.12(B) maybe a comment to eliminate the word(s) " Equipment " of 310.12(B) could be be done during this CMP cycle.

Other-wise, wait till the 2008 cycle.

I, for one, would like to see any covered or insulated GROUNDING CONDUCTOR of the Article 100 definition to be ID'd GREEN for any premise electrical power wiring.

For electronic and signaling and communications systems , other than the required SYSTEM grounding such as 800.40, 820.40 and others, a green insulated circuit conductors could have "exception(s)".

Anxiously awaiting the ROP.

[ March 13, 2003, 03:29 PM: Message edited by: gwz2 ]
 
Re: EGC color

Originally posted by gwz2:
mike's loop of Sections seem very convincing that Grounding conductors should be green if not bare.
Click to expand...
I do not think any of us think otherwise as far as Equipment Grounding Conductor the dispute is about Grounding Electrode Conductors.

Some have said a Grounding Electrode Conductor can not be green and that green is reserved exclusively for Equipment Grounding Conductors.

If you follow the whole thread you will find green is currently not reserved and you could use a Green for a ungrounded conductor if the Equipment Grounding Conductors where all bare in the same building 310.12(C)

[ March 13, 2003, 04:11 PM: Message edited by: iwire ]
 
Re: EGC color

'clearly distinguishable' to me means 'to be able to easily tell the difference', not must be totaly different. Therefor, I think one could possibly wish to use a dark green EGC and a light green ungrounded conductor. :eek:
 
Re: EGC color

Mike, How does 310-12(C) with or without 310.12(B) prohibit green? 310-12(C) refers to UNGROUNDED conductors. EGCs and GECs are GROUNDED.
 
Re: EGC color

Mike's Loop contained:

Article 100 " Grounding Conductor. A conductor used to connect equipment OR THE GROUNDED CIRCUIT OF A WIRING SYSTEM TO A GROUNDING ELECTRODE OR ELECTRODES."

I would consider that definition to include the GEC since;

Article 100 " Grounding Electrode Conductor. The conductor used to connect the grounding electrode(s) to the equipment grounding conductor, to the grounded conductor, or to both, at the service, at each building or structure where supplied from a common service, or at the source of a separately derived system."

Seems that one definition supports the other definition.
 
Re: EGC color

Figure 250.4 clearly shows Part III covering the requirements of the GEC, and Part VI covering the requirements of the EGC. There is nothing in Part III that specifies GEC identification. They are completely separate and different in definition and use. If they were the same thing, we wouldn't need two separate parts and two separate definitions.

[ March 13, 2003, 10:36 PM: Message edited by: bphgravity ]
 
Re: EGC color

Ok if you have installed bare grounding wires, where can you use a green conductor for anything else when it is prohibited in 400.23


400.23 Equipment Grounding Conductor Identification.
A conductor intended to be used as an equipment grounding conductor shall have a continuous identifying marker readily distinguishing it from the other conductor or conductors. Conductors having a continuous green color or a continuous green color with one or more yellow stripes shall not be used for other than equipment grounding purposes. The identifying marker shall consist of one of the methods in 400.23(A) or (B).

And the definition's (All Three) describe that the two are in fact are one, just differant locations!

Grounding Conductor. A conductor used to connect equipment or the grounded circuit of a wiring system to a grounding electrode or electrodes.

Grounding Conductor, Equipment. The conductor used to connect the non?current-carrying metal parts of equipment, raceways, and other enclosures to the system grounded conductor, the grounding electrode conductor , or both, at the service equipment or at the source of a separately derived system.

Grounding Electrode Conductor. The conductor used to connect the grounding electrode(s) to the equipment grounding conductor , to the grounded conductor, or to both, at the service, at each building or structure where supplied from a common service, or at the source of a separately derived system.

[ March 13, 2003, 11:43 PM: Message edited by: hurk27 ]
 
Re: EGC color

This only applies to flexible cords. Wiring in conduit or raceways or in other cable assemblies don't have this restriction.
 
Re: EGC color

Don

The ungrounded conductor.

Would we agree that 310.12(C)'s intent is to prevent confusion?

If so you would never use green for any other application.

I believe that green is reserved for grounding conductors whether they be equipment or electrode grounding conductors. Remember adjectives?

Mike
 
Re: EGC color

From the 99 code to the 2002 code 310.12(C) was reworked and they removed the words green, white and natural gray along with some other language.

Don provided a link to the proposal look at his post of March 11, 2003 11:17 AM in this thread

To me that says green is unreserved.
 
Re: EGC color

Mike,
I believe that green is reserved for grounding conductors whether they be equipment or electrode grounding conductors.
Click to expand...
Please cite a code setion in the 2002 code that reserves green for grounding conductors only. The words that did this in the '99 code do not appear in the '02 code.
Don
 
Re: EGC color

Don

Nothing says reserved.

Don, Roger, Bob.

Why can't they write the code to use good English?

Should not the code "writers" have to read this forum ?
 
Re: EGC color

Mike,
Why can't they write the code to use good English?

Should not the code "writers" have to read this forum
Click to expand...
agree, agree, agree!!!!!!!!

Mike I'm not as familiar with proposals as Don and others, but I think your Idea should be a proposal. ;)

Mike, please accept my appology if it seemed as though I was beating on you.

Roger
 
Re: EGC color

Guys,
We are the code writers. Almost code changes are the result of proposals that are sent to the NFPA by the code users. Very few originate from the code making panels. In this case there was a mistake made by CMP 6 when they changed the wording in 310.12(C) and nobody caught it until now. I don't even find a proposal for a correction in the 2005 code.
Don
 
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