electical draw from increasing fan speed

Status
Not open for further replies.
Measuring current alone gives you some idea that there is room for more load, but you really need to know kW more so then amps. Power factor will be lower with light loads and can mislead you with what you truly have available.
 
Measuring current alone gives you some idea that there is room for more load, but you really need to know kW more so then amps. Power factor will be lower with light loads and can mislead you with what you truly have available.

I have contacted Leeson to try and get a power factor curve on this motor. Hopefully that will help some. And how do I measure the kW? I thought that was just like a metric version of HP that can be figured out using a formula. or am I totally backwards again?
 
The output horsepower is related to the input HP and W by the efficiency of the motor. The efficiency will depend on the motor design and can vary with speed.
 
The way we are redoing it, it is not 3 systems it will become one large system. Here is what I got from an engineer friend of mine. He is possibly the smartest person I've ever met because he does this type of math in his head for fun.



Any objections to this?
Not an objection exactly but the 0.4 pf is an assumption.
I routinely have to do motor efficiency calculations at the bid stage of a project - get it wrong and get hammered with swingeing financial penalties on the contract.
For such calculations I use the Steinmetz equivalent circuit. It has served me well for many years.

So I've used this on a couple of motors we've used to calculate PF at 25% load.
It was 0.567 in one case 0.470 for another and 0.536 for another.
Bottom line - you can't base the calculation on assumptions.
 
I have contacted Leeson to try and get a power factor curve on this motor. Hopefully that will help some. And how do I measure the kW? I thought that was just like a metric version of HP that can be figured out using a formula. or am I totally backwards again?
You can if you know the value of all the terms for the formula. Fine. You can get V and I. But cos phi?
 
The output horsepower is related to the input HP and W by the efficiency of the motor. The efficiency will depend on the motor design and can vary with speed.
Unless I've missed it, thes peed of the load is being changed, not the motor.
But your point is valid. Changing the load on the motor alters current, efficiency, and power factor.
 
Unless I've missed it, thes peed of the load is being changed, not the motor.
But your point is valid. Changing the load on the motor alters current, efficiency, and power factor.
Yes, I should have said it varied with load, rather than with speed. :)
The small change in speed due to different slip values is not directly involved in the fan calculation.
 
Yes, I should have said it varied with load, rather than with speed. :)
The small change in speed due to different slip values is not directly involved in the fan calculation.
I'm just a pedant.
And that's often the nicest thing I get called.........:(

A little aside - mods be kind.

We do business with a transformer company and I was in their works for a witness test on a big ONAN unit.
Their chief tester was pedantic in the extreme. Dotted all the Ts, crossed all the Is.
He had a cartoon on the wall of his test bay.
A little guy was standing in front of a big desk with a big important looking guy sitting behind it.
The important guy, as important guys do, had his position displayed on an elaborate name tag on his elaborate desk.
"President of the Pedantic Society"

Little guy:
"Sir, shouldn't that be "President of the Society of Pedants"?"
 
I understand that pedantry is rampant in British boy's schools.
Newcomers are forced to matriculate, and even show their theses to the Dean. :)
 
The way we are redoing it, it is not 3 systems it will become one large system. Here is what I got from an engineer friend of mine. He is possibly the smartest person I've ever met because he does this type of math in his head for fun.



Any objections to this?

Yes. See my post at #15.
 
The way we are redoing it, it is not 3 systems it will become one large system. Here is what I got from an engineer friend of mine. He is possibly the smartest person I've ever met because he does this type of math in his head for fun.
Power (P) = Volts (V) x Amps (i) x Efficiency (h) x Power factor (f), or i = P/Vhf. The value of f is strongly dependent on load, varying from about 0.4 at 25% power to 0.8 at full power. Your motor is drawing about 50% of full load amps, so it is producing about 0.5 x (0.4/0.8) = 25% of its rated power. You wish to draw 77 amps, or 90% of its full load current, and I'd estimate its power factor at about 0.75 at that load. An affinity law states that power is proportional to the cube of speed, so N2 = N1 x [(77)(0.75)/(44)(0.4)]^(1/3), where N2 is the desired speed and N1 is the current speed.If my assumed power factors are correct, this is about 1857 rpm. Before buying any sheaves, contact the motor manufacturer for a power factor curve, and the fan manufacturer to verify that the fan is rated for this speed.


Any objections to this?

My objection is that besides leaving off a portion of the power formula (the sq. rt. of 3, because it's HIGHLY unlikely that you have a 75HP single phase motor), the entire concept is fraught with assumptions and inaccuracies. And getting a "power factor curve" from the motor mfr. is absolutely pointless. The curve (if one were to exist) would only be able to tell you what the PF will be when you ALREADY know the load on the motor. So if you ALREADY know the load on the motor, why do you need a curve? YOUR problem is, that you do not already know the load on the motor!

What you need is a watt meter. It will take in amps and voltage, and be capable of integrating the phase angle differences in them (cosine theta), which is what we call "power factor", in order to give you the electrical watts consumed (absorbed power). That, times the efficiency, often available as a curve from the motor mfr., will give you a MECHANICAL load on the motor shaft. THAT mechanical load is what will increase at the cube of the speed change by increasing the fan speed.

But before you waste a lot more time on this, let's just pretend for a moment that your friend's guesstimate is correct, that your motor is only 25% loaded. That would mean that your fan is using only just over 18HP. If you increase the speed to 2000RPM from 1250RPM, an increase of 57%, that means the shaft (mechanical) kW required from the motor will be 1.573 or 386% of what you are using now. So again, IF you are only using 18HP from a 75HP motor, and you increase the load by 386%, the motor shaft power required by that motor becomes 69HP and it could work.

Now apply logic to this: If the fan COULD have run with only 18HP, WHY DID THE ORIGINAL DESIGNER USE A 75HP MOTOR???!!!

Honestly, it makes NO sense. CONSERVATIVE design ideals from 20+ years ago might have made an Engineer over design by 20-25%; we used to call that a "fudge factor". But over design by 400%???? No. Something is missing in all of this.

Get / rent yourself a real WATT meter or hire an electrician who has one and knows how to use it. Open up ALL of the dampers, then measure the motor watt use. You will likely find that under full operating conditions, that motor is likely consuming no less than 56HP (25% fudge factor), probably more. So even if it is 56HP, you will need about 135HP from the motor, and your motor is only 75HP.
 
If a motor is marked with power factor or efficiency on the nameplate, those values are only accurate if the motor is supplied with nameplate voltage and is driving rated full load, motor should be running at nameplate speed as well under this circumstance.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top