Electric bill increase after rain.

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ptonsparky said:
How much is a double bill?

I have never been around a residential faulted underground that was giving shocks to those walking above it. Not saying it could not, just haven't. Open neutrals cause grief and shocks from water lines etc, but they won't cause the billing to go up. Wet ground or not. Even 1 faulted hot won't pass that much current. Think ohms law. If a ground rod won't pass enough current to trip a 20 amp breaker, why would insulation failure do it? Once both hots fault you make glass but the lights should be going nuts by then.

Repairing those faults is not that hard, generally. Shovel or backhoe at the worst.
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The home owner stated a more than double number and I agree thats a little high but given the situation it has the possibility ,,,if its even close to possible then I really dont wanna be driving rods or connecting a ges.
 
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A co worker just sent me this..
 
A really simple test would be to turn off the service main if it is located at the house, or else all of the feeder and branch breakers if the main disconnect is at the meter.
Then look to see if the meter disk is still spinning. If nothing else it will tell you whether there is a lot of power leaking in the underground section between the meter and the house.

If there is no OCPD at the meter, there could be really substantial current added to the house draw without tripping any protection.
 
GoldDigger said:
A really simple test would be to turn off the service main if it is located at the house, or else all of the feeder and branch breakers if the main disconnect is at the meter.
Then look to see if the meter disk is still spinning. If nothing else it will tell you whether there is a lot of power leaking in the underground section between the meter and the house.

If there is no OCPD at the meter, there could be really substantial current added to the house draw without tripping any protection.
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I'll try that. From the pictures I got from them the meter is at the poco pole by the street then goes underground to a 3r panel outside .From that 3r panel it goes back underground to a detach garage/apt..
 
I recall a few events in my lifetime where people were shocked or electrocuted where there was a competent forensic investigation with no results confirming how it happened.

Two of them were people touching a fence in a park and one was someone touching a light pole in a parking lot.

I believe in one of them (Baltimore City or Baltimore County) they did indeed conclude that underground conductors had energized a fence during a period when the ground was saturated.

If you get lots of rain one day, that rain water is still in the ground the next day when it's a clear blue sky. But come back a week later to investigate and you will find no current on that fence.

As to light poles (off subject) our company makes outdoor light controls which are used on highway lighting. When I'm out on a highway it sounds like I'm in a marina full of sailboats on a windy day because of the poles swaying and the conductors slapping the inside of the (ungrounded) poles. It is reasonable that after enough of that, insulation will become compromised.

As to underground, any geology or geotechnical engineering professor will tell you that the Earth's soils are constantly in motion. Put some sharp rocks in that mix and you will cut the insulation over time. The insulation could also be compromised during installation or otherwise.

I like Golddiggers suggestion of opening the main OCPD at the house and see if the meter out at the street still spins. Preferably you can do this after much rain.
 
I think you are barking up the wrong tree.

Is the underground conductors aluminum? My experience with aluminum is once you have insulation damage the aluminum oxidizes - and fairly rapidly ultimately leaving you with completely open circuit - which would give you power issues in the house as you would lose an ungrounded conductor - or if the neutral is lost you get voltage change issues every time a new load is turned on.

If you had copper conductors (I haven't had to repair many of these that were not damaged by someone excavating or some other major physical damage) they likely do not deteriorate at a rate like aluminum, but would still leak current to ground. How much depends on ground resistance. Lets assume 25 ohms for a moment which @ 120 volts will draw 4.8 amps or 576 watts. That will add up fast, but the longer it is in that condition the more the moisture in that soil will dry out and resistance will rise. So unless the water is being funneled into close proximity of the damaged conductor I still think it not too likely, and again if aluminum conductor it will completely fail before the bill has gotten very high very many times.

I would at least megger the underground conductors. If you pass this test, do not proceed with replacing these conductors, they are not the problem. I do have an underground locator/fault detector and could find a bad spot fairly easily, and it would cost less then rebuilding the entire service supply end, other then transportation/time to get to where you are anyway.

Just don't want to see you replace the front end of the service and then find out the lost energy consumption problem is still there after all is done. You need to find the problem and fix it, not throw money at the problem and hope you fix it.
 
Mr. Kwired I trust and value your opinion since my first post on this site.
If it seems in any way that I'm not safe, I won't even walk across the yard.
Type sir
 
electricalist said:
Mr. Kwired I trust and value your opinion since my first post on this site.
If it seems in any way that I'm not safe, I won't even walk across the yard.
Type sir
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Below 600 volts systems, your safety walking across the yard is not in too much jeopardy, unless maybe the conductor in question is not buried as deep as it should be. The voltage drops too fast through the soil for you to put yourself across very much potential. Non grounded conductive objects near the conductor in question can throw in some dangers - say a steel post were driven into the conductor - you will have dangerous voltages on that post to ground as little as a foot away from the post.
 
electricalist said:
A customer says if the ground is wet from rain the electric bill double. There are many unknowns I already know.
If there any way for her bill to go up because of underground conductors.
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Does it rain for a month straight and then not rain at all for a month?

I fail to see how rain could be the a culprit for a drastically varying monthly electric bill.

If so, the meter would be spinning with the main off, and very visibly when the ground was wet.

My electric bills are higher when the ground is wet, too. Sometimes almost twice as high.

That's because when the ground is wet here, it's cold and gets dark early and more electricity is used because of that. Another thing to remember is that those 1500 watt hair dryers take longer to dry hair when the humidity is high.

I am curious to see what the culprit turns out to be, if one is found.
 
kwired said:
I think you are barking up the wrong tree.

Is the underground conductors aluminum? My experience with aluminum is once you have insulation damage the aluminum oxidizes - and fairly rapidly ultimately leaving you with completely open circuit - which would give you power issues in the house as you would lose an ungrounded conductor - or if the neutral is lost you get voltage change issues every time a new load is turned on.

If you had copper conductors (I haven't had to repair many of these that were not damaged by someone excavating or some other major physical damage) they likely do not deteriorate at a rate like aluminum, but would still leak current to ground. How much depends on ground resistance. Lets assume 25 ohms for a moment which @ 120 volts will draw 4.8 amps or 576 watts. That will add up fast, but the longer it is in that condition the more the moisture in that soil will dry out and resistance will rise. So unless the water is being funneled into close proximity of the damaged conductor I still think it not too likely, and again if aluminum conductor it will completely fail before the bill has gotten very high very many times.

I would at least megger the underground conductors. If you pass this test, do not proceed with replacing these conductors, they are not the problem. I do have an underground locator/fault detector and could find a bad spot fairly easily, and it would cost less then rebuilding the entire service supply end, other then transportation/time to get to where you are anyway.

Just don't want to see you replace the front end of the service and then find out the lost energy consumption problem is still there after all is done. You need to find the problem and fix it, not throw money at the problem and hope you fix it.
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What I was hinting at.

You are closer, but I wouldn't mind a road trip so I might undercut your mileage charge.:D
 
K8MHZ said:
Does it rain for a month straight and then not rain at all for a month?

I fail to see how rain could be the a culprit for a drastically varying monthly electric bill.

If so, the meter would be spinning with the main off, and very visibly when the ground was wet.

My electric bills are higher when the ground is wet, too. Sometimes almost twice as high.

That's because when the ground is wet here, it's cold and gets dark early and more electricity is used because of that. Another thing to remember is that those 1500 watt hair dryers take longer to dry hair when the humidity is high.

I am curious to see what the culprit turns out to be, if one is found.
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Do they have a smart meter with (nearly) live data?

Does this homeowner have a big pump that runs when it rains?
 
electricalist said:
Yes the meter is on the poco pole by the street and goes approx 50-60 ft. Underground and comes up at the house.
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Just because the meter is out by the pole doesn't necessarily mean the underground service conductors belong to the homeowner.

Before smart meters they would sometimes put the meter at a location like this just so the meter reader would have access.

I would call the power company and make sure who's responsibilty it is to test and repair these underground conductors.

Everything past the service normally belongs to the homeowner or business but the meter is not the service. I have located meters out by the pad mounted transformer just because that's where the power company wanted them. The service disconnect was still at the house.
 
I think Mgookin may be on to something....what loads might be running when it rains? Just called the builder of a new house down the street. Not quite done, and sump pump is piped out with PVC stubbed out back, but not far enough....pipe was discharging constantly, due to lack of grading.
 
To sum up what I'm finding. From the meter to the first disc.. 1 conduit. At the disc. Its fed line side and load side from one conduit. Somethings not right. My guess is a splice under ground and that how the panel at the other house is fed. Which could be where the problem is. Plus Mr. Kwired it's all. There appears to be multiple branch circuits to things under the house. Etc.
 
electricalist said:
To sum up what I'm finding. At the disc. Its fed line side and load side from one conduit. Somethings not right.
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Sounds to me like that just means the conductors are direct buried and they just selected a conduit to sleeve them in that would hold all of them - though there sort of is nothing wrong with that, the service and non service conductors should still have been in separate sleeves.

Again meg all underground conductors to ground. If they pass that test then replacing them will not solve the problem instead you have load issues you need to be looking at.
 
kwired said:
Sounds to me like that just means the conductors are direct buried and they just selected a conduit to sleeve them in that would hold all of them - though there sort of is nothing wrong with that, the service and non service conductors should still have been in separate sleeves.

Again meg all underground conductors to ground. If they pass that test then replacing them will not solve the problem instead you have load issues you need to be looking at.
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I was thinking the same thing.
Were 're doing the service over head to avoid digging it up and there be multiple problems underground. As well as verify all the loads . every disconnect is double lugged. To feed something else as well as neutral and grounds all bonded.
 
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