electric bill

[kwired]

Check any buried circuit or feeder. Eventually, you'll find it when steam comes out of the ground, but at first the leak will be too small and just show up on the electric bill.

I have repaired many failed underground lines over the years. Never ever located a bad line via steam coming out of the ground. Possibly seen a bad steam line via steam coming out of the ground though

 

[K8MHZ]

Yes and no, depends on other factors. As long as there is still air in the tank the system still has expansion capacity, the less air there is the more frequently it will cycle the pump as there is less expansion capacity. If you are using water at a high enough volume you have nearly constant run time anyway. Short cycling is likely going to be noticed more by pump problems than by the energy bill. Where I have seen the well run up the energy bill is when it doesn't shut off at all for some reason, like a malfunctioning pressure switch, they usually fail open but sometimes fail closed.

Agreed.

If 1000 gallons is used, 1000 is pumped, regardless if it's pumped and stored or pumped and used. Short cycling would not triple an electric bill.

Now, a plugged metering passage will run the pump non stop and never get to pressure, no matter how much water is used or not used. That would indeed have a huge effect on the electric bill.

I usually find that water heaters can be culprits and show little sign of malfunction other than high energy use. A tricky one is where sand or sediment build up around the bottom heating element. Every thing will 'ohm out' correctly, but cycling will be affected and the elements insulated by sand will be using energy and not doing much to heat the water containing the thermocouple. Instead, the top element will be doing all the work and stay on much longer trying to heat all the water in the tank to cycle the thermostat.

 

[ptonsparky]

I've seen steam from a fault once. 480v and the owners drove a metal fence post into it. Winter time and it produced steam and bubbling water near that post until I shut things down.

 

[qcroanoke]

I've seen steam from a fault once. 480v and the owners drove a metal fence post into it. Winter time and it produced steam and bubbling water near that post until I shut things down.

I saw it on an exterior lighting circuit. Bypassed the GFIC and walked the perimeter. found it at the sign out front. I had dug it up earlier and there it was. Could a made coffee.

 

[topend]

thanks for all the suggestions. all connections in the panel and meter socket are tight. there is no well pump or underground feeders, and the hot water tank is gas fired. All of the appliances (washer, dryer, freezer, microwave) seem to be at least 20 years old. the basement freezer compressor did not kick on even though we left the door open, but everything inside was properly frozen.? also, when the dryer was started the basement fluorescent lights brightened significantly. when I moved the breaker to the other bus bar and started the dryer, the same lights DIMMED significantly. also, the circuit voltage dropped from 133v to around 115v when the dryer was started. if any of this points in a particular direction, please advise.
Thanks, again.

 

[kwired]

thanks for all the suggestions. all connections in the panel and meter socket are tight. there is no well pump or underground feeders, and the hot water tank is gas fired. All of the appliances (washer, dryer, freezer, microwave) seem to be at least 20 years old. the basement freezer compressor did not kick on even though we left the door open, but everything inside was properly frozen.? also, when the dryer was started the basement fluorescent lights brightened significantly. when I moved the breaker to the other bus bar and started the dryer, the same lights DIMMED significantly. also, the circuit voltage dropped from 133v to around 115v when the dryer was started. if any of this points in a particular direction, please advise.
Thanks, again.

133 is a little on the high side. You could be experiencing a neutral problem, but that probably wouldn't be much cause for an increased energy bill.

What is the line to line voltage? If it is high also then the POCO probably has a problem with a voltage regulator, but again probably not something that is going to make much difference in the energy bill.

 

[ptonsparky]

133 is a little on the high side. You could be experiencing a neutral problem, but that probably wouldn't be much cause for an increased energy bill.

What is the line to line voltage? If it is high also then the POCO probably has a problem with a voltage regulator, but again probably not something that is going to make much difference in the energy bill.

I agree. From personal experience the toast gets done quicker and a call to our POCO brought them out in short order. Mine was closer to 150.

What is your lineto neutral voltages when nothing is on? Use two meters then compare as you turn things on. It would be nice to have three amp clamps too. Neutral & each line.

 

[kwired]

I agree. From personal experience the toast gets done quicker and a call to our POCO brought them out in short order. Mine was closer to 150.

What is your lineto neutral voltages when nothing is on? Use two meters then compare as you turn things on. It would be nice to have three amp clamps too. Neutral & each line.

I had about 137/275 one time at my place. Don't know how long it had been going on. I happened to discover it when I was working on something for a customer in my own shop and happened to notice it was kind of high. They had a malfunctioning regulator control a couple miles down the road.

 

[gar]

131221-1651EST

topend:

You need measurements, and not just voltage. But it does appear that you have a neutral problem somewhere from your voltage measurements and the dimming.

At least start making some current measurements even if you can not make power measurements, and look at their bill.

How many kWh per month were used for the 12 months prior to the problem? Draw a graph of kWh/month vs months for the period before the problem. Do the same for all months since the problem. Were the values relatively consistent before the problem? And what is the consistency after the problem? How do comparable months compare?,

What changed around the time the problem started?

A single 100 W bulb on continuously for one average month, 730.5 hours, is 73.05 kWh.

If I assume the customer has a normal $100 bill per month, and using $0.16 / kWh, this is about 625 kWh/month. So a 3 times larger bill is about 1875 kWh/month.

The difference between a normal month and a high month is 1250 kWh. This is the equivalent of a continuously connected 1.711 kW load. At 120 V this represents a current of 14.26 A.

If the unwanted load is not continuous, then the unwanted load power is greater when on and so is the current.

Get some numbers for us to look at.

.

 

[ramsy]

This is the equivalent of a continuously connected 1.711 kW load. At 120 V this represents a current of 14.26 A.

Nice work. That may also shows up with amp meter clamped around the Grounding Electrode Conductor.

 

[kwired]

Nice work. That may also shows up with amp meter clamped around the Grounding Electrode Conductor.

Current on the GEC doesn't mean you are losing anything. It could be return current from a load that finds a better path through the GEC than it finds through the service neutral, or could even be current coming from a neighbors place via a common connection like the water pipe, which may or may not be of concern but will not impact the readings of the utility watthour meter.

OP said the bill nearly tripled in like one billing period - unless there is some obvious increase in consumption, there likely is something unusual going on here.

Look at meter readings themselves from past billings and make sure there is consistencies in usage (not the total dollar amount).

Maybe the meter was read wrong - it happens.

Over time bills usually do go up dollar wise as rates usually increase, so you still need to look harder at kWhrs than you do at dollars, but rates usually do not change fast enough the bill will triple in one billing cycle.

 

[JoeTroubleShoot]

I don't know if it was mentioned or not yet, but you should check out their past bills. They may have been getting an average for a long time. I'm not too familiar with how many times a meter is supposed to be read, but I know for sure that they will go for long periods of time without reading them. Might be a chance that it hasn't been read in a long time and the last month or so was a real reading.

 

[ptonsparky]

I don't know if it was mentioned or not yet, but you should check out their past bills. They may have been getting an average for a long time. I'm not too familiar with how many times a meter is supposed to be read, but I know for sure that they will go for long periods of time without reading them. Might be a chance that it hasn't been read in a long time and the last month or so was a real reading.

That used to be the case in this area but I believe smart meters have taken over.

Makes me wonder if any has called the POCO to see if an "adjustment" has been made to correct estimated billings.

 

[ramsy]

Current on the GEC doesn't mean you are losing anything. It could be return current from a load that finds a better path through the GEC than it finds through the service neutral

Not without tripping GFCI's & most AFCI's along the way.

or could even be current coming from a neighbors place via a common connection like the water pipe

Nope. Dwellings separated by meters also isolate the GEC's, regardless of current flow on water pipes.

I've seen plenty a light left burning in crawl spaces, but not enough to triple the bill, much less a 7-Amp light bulb.

 

[kwired]

That used to be the case in this area but I believe smart meters have taken over.

Makes me wonder if any has called the POCO to see if an "adjustment" has been made to correct estimated billings.

Or something similar - sometimes you can be on a payment plan also where the bill is based on the average use in a previous year and you pay an average based on that, but at the end of the year you have to make up any differences in actual bill vs the estimated bill. This is usually a way to keep the bill from fluctuating in different seasons and spread the higher usage months into the lower usage months payment wise. Hopefully the customer knows this is their billing arrangement, but nothing surprises me anymore.

 

[GoldDigger]

Nope. Dwellings separated by meters also isolate the GEC's, regardless of current flow on water pipes.

Depends on just how you are identifying things. If the water pipes are bonded to the GES there may not be current in the GEC, but there will be in the binding jumper if one house loses its neutral.
If the water line is not an effective path, then there will be current in the GEC of both houses, but the neutral voltage offset will be much greater!



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[ramsy]

If the water line is not an effective path, then there will be current in the GEC of both houses

I believe we agree AMP clamping the GEC at dwelling fuse boxes can't include the neighbors, even with meter centers sharing GEC's, or joining more GEC's up stream.

 

[GoldDigger]

Depending on exactly where a common transformer secondary is grounded by POCO, it could. Your GEC is a parallel path from earth back to the POCO neutral.

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[ramsy]

..it could. Your GEC is a parallel path from earth back to the POCO neutral.

Would you agree, if the electrode system jumpers (GES) are line side, at meter or further upstream, any neighbor's power will remain line side of other fuse boxes?

 

[Daja7]

It was mentioned in an earlier reply, but i have had this complaint a number of times and most of the time it is a heat pump not working and the electric strips are the only heat source 100% of the time. Home owner does not know any differend since they still get heat. First thing to check.